F3 Next tour

[RTHolmes]

no way to prove it in a Video

 .ahf movies show exactly which views are used, unless the person is using trackIR.

[Ardy123]

Actually they are. because Both Stuka & Il-2 are not fighter/bombers. They are bomber/attackers. And all bombers do have F3, all fighters do not.

Really??? all this time and all the fun I had dog fighting in a stuka Swiss-Cheesing other planes with the .303? my heart is broken, long live the Stuka fighter plane, (f-88?)

[R 105]

Nrshida my point has nothing to do with the DA. I am just using it as the most glaring example of the advantage of F-3. Yes I think people go to the DA for F-3 to look like super pilots without the time and trouble to learn ACM. It is their $14.95 and if that is what they want to do well that is on them. While I know some guys don't fight in F-3 there most do. I would just like it if when you pull the trigger you go back to F-1 mode at least in the MA.

 

[Changeup]

IMHO, you're making a lot of fuss in the wrong area, if your fights are degrading to the point where your opponent has a tracking guns solution on you, you should probably resign yourself to a good pasting, see if you can pull off a reversal of fortune and consider what you might do next time to NOT get yourself into that position. Just re-up and try a different approach. Taking away the 'garden hose' function is not going to improve your ACM.

Under the nose tracking shots are still very possible without F3. If you slide your head to the extreme side, you only need a slight roll and a second or two to observe the flightpath before making a very good estimation of their position and the necessary tracking solution.

Respectfully, aren't you being a little paranoid? Why wouldn't they admit it if they never leave the DA and it is enabled there? Do you see my point? You are trying to paint the picture of the DA regulars as being there only so they can use F3 mode and they deny it to make themselves look good to the non DA regulars. That's really not the impression I get, I really don't think they care. To some people Aces High is a simulation and to some it is just a game.

Referring back to the question I posed to R105, a lot of my friends that stay in the DA play on computers that can't cope with the MA, others have very limited time and don't wish to waste it searching for a fight in the MA. Another group are avid F3 mode fliers, mostly ex H2H refugees who will freely admit to using it when asked. I don't consider any of those F3 players to have gunnery skills that exceed those who have mastered the aerial gunnery of Aces High. I'd rather be trying to evade or reverse one of them, than being under the guns of Bruv119, MtnMan or Grizz for example.

Nrshida,


With all due respet, that's too much timeand how do you improve one's ACM when under normal circumstances you could have manuevered out of a kill that otherwise might not have happened....only you don't know you would have because your dead?  Flying against an F3 guy will never reinforce what might work, therefore the learning curve is much much slower..trust me...I flew F3 for a year in the DA and never went to the MA and it was a miserable transition but I was a HELL OF SHOT in the DA!! rotflmao

[B4Buster]

Interesting experiment JUG but it's impossible to control all the variables of the Main Arena. Getting accurate results will be impossible.

[BaldEagl]

I can tell you most are using F-3 just by the fantastic deflection shoots made there and If you confront them about it they all plea innocence. Go to the DA and record a few fights and see for yourself. I call it the garden Hose effect.

That used to be my MA bread and butter that I started working on in AW in 1996.  I rarely missed an under the nose lead shot in the MA and there's no F3 enabled there.

I think you need to practice before jumping to conclusions.

[dedalos]

Interesting experiment JUG but it's impossible to control all the variables of the Main Arena. Getting accurate results will be impossible.

It should be easy.  Without F3 his SA will be so bad that he will die before even thinking about shooting at anyone.

[B4Buster]

Dedalos - I'm saying every fight he finds himself will be different, thus contaminating the data and making an accurate depiction of it impossible.

[Changeup]

That used to be my MA bread and butter that I started working on in AW in 1996.  I rarely missed an under the nose lead shot in the MA and there's no F3 enabled there.

I think you need to practice before jumping to conclusions.

Ok but the ones you DID miss were probably because you didn't see them slip out from underneath your nose by starting their flat turn and ruddering toward the ground, pushing the stick forward after seeing or hearing your shots, wait one second and then push down or flat turn the other direction or pull up.  F3 lets you see your bogey make those moves and not escape...there isn't really any arguing it. 

Ok...so if I stipulate that F3 doesn't improve aerial gunnery that much then will you stipulate that it DOES improve SA enough to not mitigate the small amount of improved aerial gunnery? 

Changeup

[dedalos]

Dedalos - I'm saying every fight he finds himself will be different, thus contaminating the data and making an accurate depiction of it impossible.

Yeah, we agree.  I m just saying that the data will be contaminated even more by the lack of flying time when not in F3.

[JUGgler]

Dedalos - I'm saying every fight he finds himself will be different, thus contaminating the data and making an accurate depiction of it impossible.

Actually the variable should be fairly controllable and consistant ie,

1- Always upping at the base with the biggest red dar
2- Allowing myself to be vulched a maximum of 3 times then move on
3- Always fighting the "disadvantaged" fight ie, never "basecamping"
4- Never going over say 3K agl

Just examples, also hit% and kills per hour/sortie should be a good indicator "no matter" the fight regime of "improved gunnery"
Kill/death ratio will be an excellent indicator of SA  IMO.

I really don't see the experiment getting skewed to favorably by any variables!


JUGgler

[nrshida]

Nrshida,


With all due respet, that's too much timeand how do you improve one's ACM when under normal circumstances you could have manuevered out of a kill that otherwise might not have happened....only you don't know you would have because your dead?  Flying against an F3 guy will never reinforce what might work, therefore the learning curve is much much slower..trust me...I flew F3 for a year in the DA and never went to the MA and it was a miserable transition but I was a HELL OF SHOT in the DA!! rotflmao

I know you did Changeup, we have a mutual friend. I think relative ACM is analogous to staying on the top of a very large slippery ball, the further you get from the very top the harder you have to work to get back to that position. If you're already close to the receiving end of a tracking guns solution then you probably aren't going to pull it back anyway in a 1 on 1. If it's a third, fourth or fifth party, well, poo poo happens. The more advanced your ACM becomes the more and more advantage you can afford to give an opponent at the start of a fight, but I think we were discussing beginners in this case?

Well, respectfully I can't agree that it stifles your learning necessarily because I also came up through the DA and I think my ACM is progressing alright.

That used to be my MA bread and butter that I started working on in AW in 1996.  I rarely missed an under the nose lead shot in the MA and there's no F3 enabled there.

I think you need to practice before jumping to conclusions.

I agree with BaldEagl. This shot used to account for 90% of my shots also, when I was a noob-tard Zero stick. Perhaps I have a few films left over, I'll have a look.

Ironically I'm not supporting the F3 mode. I myself think it subtracts from the immerse effect and certainly does enhance SA at least. Remove it as far as I am concerned, but there will be a lot of complaints from a lot of disgruntled long term players. Some of whom I consider friends and do not post or read the forums.

[SmokinLoon]

Really??? all this time and all the fun I had dog fighting in a stuka Swiss-Cheesing other planes with the .303? my heart is broken, long live the Stuka fighter plane, (f-88?)

Yes, really.  The designers of the Ju87 and Il-2 had no intention of air to air combat when they were designed and neither were implemented into "fighter" squadrons for air to air use (no fighter squadrons that I've read about, that it).  They both were meant to proved direct support to ground forces. 

You can dog fight in any aircraft and just because you have an advantage in a category or 2 does not make it in the same category (i.e. "fighter").  The D3a is still the tightest turning aircraft in the game, but who can you out gun, out climb, out run, and out roll other than the B5N? 

Please remember that the Stuka, nor any other aircraft in AH other than the British aircraft fire the .303 British cartridge in their guns.  The Ju-87 like the rest of the German aircraft fired their standardized 8mm (7.9mm) Mauser.  Another .30 caliber mind you, but none the less certainly NOT a .303 British.   

[Changeup]

If you're already close to the receiving end of a tracking guns solution then you probably aren't going to pull it back anyway in a 1 on 1. If it's a third, fourth or fifth party, well, poo poo happens. The more advanced your ACM becomes the more and more advantage you can afford to give an opponent at the start of a fight, but I think we were discussing beginners in this case?

Well, respectfully I can't agree that it stifles your learning necessarily because I also came up through the DA and I think my ACM is progressing alright.

I agree with BaldEagl. This shot used to account for 90% of my shots also, when I was a noob-tard Zero stick. Perhaps I have a few films left over, I'll have a look.

Ironically I'm not supporting the F3 mode. I myself think it subtracts from the immerse effect and certainly does enhance SA at least. Remove it as far as I am concerned, but there will be a lot of complaints from a lot of disgruntled long term players. Some of whom I consider friends and do not post or read the forums.

Stifle is a bit too strong...my suggestion was more appropriate feedback with the end result being 'to learn".  If I keep practicing something wrongly...I just get real good and doing it wrong, thus the learning curve is much steeper when forced to recognize that it was being done wrong...as in moving to the MA where guys don't just flat turn forever until you kill them.  I should have said it differently...F3 users have to re-educate themselves on gunnery, SA and depth perception.  To me, having to learn those things the correct way is causal to using F3.

[E25280]

Threads like this are hilarious to me.

I won't comment about the DA, because I don't fly there.

But in the MAs, whether F3 gives an advantage or not, whether fair or not, whether you believe it is consistent or not, the fact remains . . . if you actually allow yourself to be shot down by an IL-2, you screwed up, period.  The plane is not an anti-aircraft weapon of any sort, unless you allow it to be, through poor SA or making a significant ACM mistake.

All the rest of the rationalization, excuse making, whining and stamping of feet is just to sooth bruised egos because someone allowed a slow, fat, dumb bomber to pwn him.