Author Topic: AH compared to RL airplanes  (Read 3372 times)

Offline RufusLeaking

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Re: AH compared to RL airplanes
« Reply #30 on: January 04, 2011, 12:43:30 PM »
Any flight simulator is an approximation of real flight.  The best use of simulators is to run checklists and practice procedures, such as emergencies that would be impossible to practice in flight.

Aces high does not simulate aircraft systems in a meaningful way.   It does allow folks to die repeatedly in a nicely modeled 3D environment with a variety of beautiful birds. 

you want to fly a heading of 270. wind is 300@19. i somehow think that'll affect the plane in flight.  :devil :neener:
Ground track will be affected.  The air flow relative to the plane would not.

… but you do it from an "I'm a REAL pilot" ivory tower and don't offer much reasoning beyond "because."
 
Real life flying is not an ivory tower.  It is a club with demanding requirements.  I used to think anyone could fly a plane, until I became an instructor.  I will concede that the self-selected group that plays AH would have a better than average chance of passing a flight check (after the real world training), but throwing just anyone into the left seat is a crap shoot.

Crosswind landings in gusts .....
 
Stiff cross wind landings are tough in any plane.

Since AH relies on visual and audio cues only, I think it helps a RL pilot learn to trust the instruments a little more and "seat of the pants" a little less.  Considering how the inner ear can trick you I think this is a good thing!
Quoted for truth.

“Seat of the pants” flying is fatal.  It has been romanticized over time, but it is not reliable.  Sure, one can feel motion in a real airplane, but to rely on your senses completely will eventually kill you.  JFK, Jr. is a classic case of inflight disorientation.  One can drive a perfectly good airplane into the ground without “feeling” uncomfortable in the seat.

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Offline CAP1

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Re: AH compared to RL airplanes
« Reply #31 on: January 04, 2011, 01:07:15 PM »
Any flight simulator is an approximation of real flight.  The best use of simulators is to run checklists and practice procedures, such as emergencies that would be impossible to practice in flight.

Aces high does not simulate aircraft systems in a meaningful way.   It does allow folks to die repeatedly in a nicely modeled 3D environment with a variety of beautiful birds. 
Ground track will be affected.  The air flow relative to the plane would not.
Real life flying is not an ivory tower.  It is a club with demanding requirements.  I used to think anyone could fly a plane, until I became an instructor.  I will concede that the self-selected group that plays AH would have a better than average chance of passing a flight check (after the real world training), but throwing just anyone into the left seat is a crap shoot.
Stiff cross wind landings are tough in any plane.
Quoted for truth.

“Seat of the pants” flying is fatal.  It has been romanticized over time, but it is not reliable.  Sure, one can feel motion in a real airplane, but to rely on your senses completely will eventually kill you.  JFK, Jr. is a classic case of inflight disorientation.  One can drive a perfectly good airplane into the ground without “feeling” uncomfortable in the seat.


that airflow is what will effect your ground track.
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Offline Brooke

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Re: AH compared to RL airplanes
« Reply #32 on: January 04, 2011, 05:05:49 PM »
...ok so maybe there are some obvious similarities between AH and flying real aircraft, or even RC planes, but, beyond basic flying, I'd imagine most of the stuff we do in AH is fantasy land to the fullest degree... and no one does in real life, ever.

I totally disagree.  Flying dogfights at Air Combat USA was very similar to fights in Air Warrior and Aces High, with the same things that work in AH working in those fights in the real planes.

My view is that a pilot with lots of experience and skill in AH is at a large advantage in a real dogfight in real planes.

Offline Ardy123

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Re: AH compared to RL airplanes
« Reply #33 on: January 04, 2011, 05:23:50 PM »
I totally disagree.  Flying dogfights at Air Combat USA was very similar to fights in Air Warrior and Aces High, with the same things that work in AH working in those fights in the real planes.

My view is that a pilot with lots of experience and skill in AH is at a large advantage in a real dogfight in real planes.
What moves did you do an 'Figthertown USA'?

I agree that the basic moves would apply, as well as the basic knowledge... ie how do do a barrel roll etc...
but.....

Unless you were hanging on your prop 200 feet above the ground, and taking extreme risks...  I stand by what I said.

1) If you managed not to to auger, you would probably vomit all over yourself, as the engine rolled your ride and swung the nose down.
2) The physical strain of pulling Gs frequently and often doing post stall acms, would force you to stop.. (blurred vision, disorientation, extreme fatigue), After a good 1v1 DA fight, my wrist hurts, can't imagine what thats like on my body if I did it in real life.
3) As stated before, the rudder in AH is surprisingly effective. I have not flown a 109K4 in real life, but in AH, I can make a 109 fall sideways keeping the nose almost level, using the rudder. I can also, snap the nose up, at or just above stall speed, and then move the stick to the back-left corner to cause a upside down controlled flat spit which can be exited by giving more throttle, all of which would be suicidal in real life.

Or what about the Spit cartwheel move, where the airplane tumbles erratically? Sure, if the airplane was made out of super strong materials that didn't exist in WW2, but, I bet if you tried it in a spit, you'd ruin the airplane, and possible cause it snap its tail..


« Last Edit: January 04, 2011, 05:40:58 PM by Ardy123 »
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Offline Brooke

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Re: AH compared to RL airplanes
« Reply #34 on: January 04, 2011, 06:46:06 PM »
What moves did you do an 'Figthertown USA'?

Just about everything I do in AH (and most of the 1-on-1 moves I read about in Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering, by Shaw) except losing control of the aircraft (although I don't do that often in AH either).

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I agree that the basic moves would apply, as well as the basic knowledge... ie how do do a barrel roll etc...
but.....

Unless you were hanging on your prop 200 feet above the ground, and taking extreme risks...  I stand by what I said.

Hanging on prop in a veritcal persuit included, but just not taking it all the way into a stall.

Quote
1) If you managed not to to auger, you would probably vomit all over yourself, as the engine rolled your ride and swung the nose down.

I think I did auger (virtually) once by going through the "hard deck" (an altitude they specify as being "the ground").  I didn't vomit, but I felt nauseated at times -- interestingly mostly when the instructor showed me some moves and I wasn't flying, and my nasea would go away or lessen when I was flying, even in aerobatics.  My flying also included a brief blackout when the instructor came hammering back to base then slammed it into a more-than 6 g turn off the end of the runway (to scrub off speed) then right into a final (just like how I go in to land in AH, by the way) without letting me know he was going to do that.  Since I didn't know he was going to slam it into such a turn, I didn't tense up and blacked out in about 1-2 seconds.  I know it was more than 6 g's because when I came to, the g-limit beeper was beeping away and had to be reset.

Quote
2) The physical strain of pulling Gs frequently and often doing post stall acms, would force you to stop.. (blurred vision, disorientation, extreme fatigue), After a good 1v1 DA fight, my wrist hurts, can't imagine what thats like on my body if I did it in real life.

4 g's are not bad.  6 g's are some work, and over 6 can black you out quickly if you aren't prepared for it (or at least that's how it was for me).  You don't pull more than 6 g's in AH dogfights much either.  I had 4-5 dogfights and was fine.

Quote
3) As stated before, the rudder in AH is surprisingly effective. I have not flown a 109K4 in real life, but in AH, I can make a 109 fall sideways keeping the nose almost level, using the rudder. I can also, snap the nose up, at or just above stall speed, and then move the stick to the back-left corner to cause a upside down controlled flat spit which can be exited by giving more throttle, all of which would be suicidal in real life.

Or what about the Spit cartwheel move, where the airplane tumbles erratically? Sure, if the airplane was made out of super strong materials that didn't exist in WW2, but, I bet if you tried it in a spit, you'd ruin the airplane, and possible cause it snap its tail..

I almost never do stalls during my fighting in AH.  Very occasionally I'll try it as the last thing in my repertoire once I've already basically lost the fight and have nothing left.  It rarely works for me, as it just kills whatever energy you have left and loses you some altitude.  I don't usually find it being all that effective when used against me either, but who knows -- maybe there are masters of it out there.  I'm not saying I've fought everyone in the game, and I'm certainly not the best pilot in AH.  I think of it as a desperation defense, not an offense like good management of E.

If we are talking about real airplanes and real combat, weird stall moves were used in a tiny fraction of real WWII fighting (tiny meaning approaching zero percent, but not exactly zero -- you can read an account of a pilot using it here and there out of the thousands of other accounts that don't involve it), and different planes handled that sort of thing differently (like in AH).  Maybe it would have worked in the Marchetti I was flying at Air Combat USA similarly to some model of aircraft in AH, too.

Anyway, my point is:  If you are good in AH, you will have no problem going up in a prop plane and being proficient in ACM with it.  If you are a 2000-hour real-life pilot who has no ACM experience or know how, an AH'er (even if he has little time in real planes) will clean your clock in a dogfight in real planes.

This to me means that AH compares very well to RL airplanes in the realm of interest -- dogfighting in prop planes.

Offline Tarstar

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Re: AH compared to RL airplanes
« Reply #35 on: January 04, 2011, 07:31:05 PM »
I'm no "real Pio-lat" but... Back around late 2000 till just prior to 9/11 I was taking flying lessons..  During that time I always found negative G's to be far more disorienting and difficult to deal with than positive G's.. Is this common or am I an exception?

Offline Oldman731

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Re: AH compared to RL airplanes
« Reply #36 on: January 04, 2011, 07:33:26 PM »
Flying dogfights at Air Combat USA was very similar to fights in Air Warrior and Aces High, with the same things that work in AH working in those fights in the real planes.

My view is that a pilot with lots of experience and skill in AH is at a large advantage in a real dogfight in real planes.

A large advantage over whom?

I did Air Combat USA a few years ago, too.  Very fun, but tough to draw broad conclusions from two hours of instructor-assisted dogfighting.  

- oldman

Offline Brooke

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Re: AH compared to RL airplanes
« Reply #37 on: January 04, 2011, 08:53:01 PM »
A large advantage over whom?

Quote
Anyway, my point is:  If you are good in AH, you will have no problem going up in a prop plane and being proficient in ACM with it.  If you are a 2000-hour real-life pilot who has no ACM experience or know how, an AH'er (even if he has little time in real planes) will clean your clock in a dogfight in real planes.

Quote
I did Air Combat USA a few years ago, too.  Very fun, but tough to draw broad conclusions from two hours of instructor-assisted dogfighting.  

- oldman

The instructor explained a little about things like high and low yo yo's prior to the fights, which I already knew.  After that, he turned the plane over to me, and I fought the fights as I saw fit.

For me, fighting in AH (or in that case Air Warrior) was a lot like those real-plane fights, and experience in AW directly translated to improved skill in those real-plane fights.

Offline rvflyer

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Re: AH compared to RL airplanes
« Reply #38 on: January 04, 2011, 09:30:34 PM »
that airflow is what will effect your ground track.

True Cap, if you want to fly a track over the ground. but if you just point your nose at your destination without any type of WCA the airplane will just drift around
until you are flying into the wind towards your destination. The wind only affects your travel over the ground. It makes no difference to the airplane how fast the wind is
or which direction it is blowing.
Having said that I might add this is for a constant velocity wind, now what can cause problems are turbulance, microbursts and wind shear when you are coming in low and slow to land.

Just flying along from point A to point B the airplane does not care if the wind is 25kts or 100kts, head wind or tailwind or Xwind you will still have the same IAS it only changes
the ground speed.

But being part of the CAP you know all of this right. ;)
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Offline rvflyer

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Re: AH compared to RL airplanes
« Reply #39 on: January 04, 2011, 09:49:22 PM »
you want to fly a heading of 270. wind is 300@19. i somehow think that'll affect the plane in flight.  :devil :neener:

Not really, effects the track over the ground not the plane.
Some nice discussions here thanks, I can see how this helps people transitioning to real life flying. but having started out as a RL pilot first and going to AH
I think causes a bigger problem for me, my brains is telling me to fly realistically when I should be flying cartonish. :)

Nice to get perspective of other pilots about game.
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Offline Oldman731

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Re: AH compared to RL airplanes
« Reply #40 on: January 04, 2011, 09:52:40 PM »
The instructor explained a little about things like high and low yo yo's prior to the fights, which I already knew.  After that, he turned the plane over to me, and I fought the fights as I saw fit.

He didn't control the throttle?

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Offline Brooke

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Re: AH compared to RL airplanes
« Reply #41 on: January 04, 2011, 10:05:41 PM »
He didn't control the throttle?

- oldman

It was up near full the whole time.

Offline ink

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Re: AH compared to RL airplanes
« Reply #42 on: January 04, 2011, 10:32:15 PM »
Brooke~Air combat USA, ive read about that, and so want to go its in Cali right?  what was the cost? how long of a course is it?  Is that the place they do 'lazer tag'? For the firing? shooting? this is something I am very intrested in, I would love to hear about your expierences there, was it worth the money? Like I said on my 40th Bday I took up a super decathalon, it cost  $180 for about a half hour, I woulda paid way more then that lol, and now I have a major desire to do it again,  I cant even explain the feelings I got when we first lifted off, and just flying before we got to the area for aerobatics, I know if I had the money I would most certainly buy a plane, I saw an F4U for sale fully working condition lol $800,000, but when I took my flight there was a small trick byplane for 40k, much more possible(someday) anyway thanx in advance for any info and stories you may pass on.        Paul

Offline rvflyer

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Re: AH compared to RL airplanes
« Reply #43 on: January 04, 2011, 10:49:14 PM »
Brooke~Air combat USA, ive read about that, and so want to go its in Cali right?  what was the cost? how long of a course is it?  Is that the place they do 'lazer tag'? For the firing? shooting? this is something I am very intrested in, I would love to hear about your expierences there, was it worth the money? Like I said on my 40th Bday I took up a super decathalon, it cost  $180 for about a half hour, I woulda paid way more then that lol, and now I have a major desire to do it again,  I cant even explain the feelings I got when we first lifted off, and just flying before we got to the area for aerobatics, I know if I had the money I would most certainly buy a plane, I saw an F4U for sale fully working condition lol $800,000, but when I took my flight there was a small trick byplane for 40k, much more possible(someday) anyway thanx in advance for any info and stories you may pass on.        Paul

Some pretty good info here INK

http://aircombatusa.com/
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Offline FiLtH

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Re: AH compared to RL airplanes
« Reply #44 on: January 04, 2011, 11:25:24 PM »
 My uncle was a carrier pilot and a few years back he bought a flight sim game. He spent more time sitting on the deck checking his gauges than he did flying. Over thought the whole process. I always said..well thought..I didnt want to disrespect the man, "If we're at war..you fly it...if we're sitting at our PCs..I'll fly it."

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