F-22?

[EskimoJoe]

Everything I've seen about the F-35 is that she's a significant step backwards from the F-22.

But she's VTOL, that MUST be good enough right!? 

[Wildcat1]

Everything I've seen about the F-35 is that she's a significant step backwards from the F-22.

the only benefit i see from the F-35 is that they will be able to be mass-produced, and that they can be deployed much closer and much more rapidly to the front than other fighters

[Reschke]

I saw that tonight on NBC News...that is one monster of an aircraft...size wise!

That thing looks like it is bigger than the F-22 and closer in size to something like an F-111.

[eagl]

You guys are pretty much all missing the point.

1.  The Russian fighter is obviously a stealthy deep strike aircraft.  It's freaking huge (F-111 size) with large internal weapons bays.  If used as a pure fighter it can probably carry double the missile loadout of an F-22, triple or quadruple what an F-35 can carry.
2.  The F-22 is an air dominance fighter with no compromises, but because of stealth it can't be modded to an A/G workhorse like the F-15D became the strike eagle.  Comparisons to the F-22 and this new Chinese fighter are like comparing an F-15 to an F-111.
3.  The F-35 is a stealthy viper with better information integration software.  Those systems can be put in ANY future aircraft and are true advances, but the plane itself is little more than a stealthy F-16.  The F-35 is gonna suck at air superiority and it doesn't have the range or payload to replace the F-15E.  It is also only front aspect stealthy, so anything left alive after the strike is over will take a shot at the retreating F-35s after they drop their 2 bombs and run out of gas, because they are not rear-aspect stealthy.

This Chinese fighter is something the US wishes it had the money and balls to produce, a stealthy deep strike fighter to be the true successor of the F-111, F-15E, and B-58 hustler.  It would be a massive game changer as a strategic deterrent for the US against any potential adversaries, and could actually potentially save trillions of dollars since it could allow us to reduce deterrent commitments elsewhere and act as a deterrent we might actually use against any smaller high-threat country that doesn't quite deserve nuking.  But we're not going to make one, even though the concept was pretty fully worked out with the "stretch" F-22 proposals.

[Tyrannis]

You guys are pretty much all missing the point.

1.  The Russian fighter is obviously a stealthy deep strike aircraft.  It's freaking huge (F-111 size) with large internal weapons bays.  If used as a pure fighter it can probably carry double the missile loadout of an F-22, triple or quadruple what an F-35 can carry.
2.  The F-22 is an air dominance fighter with no compromises, but because of stealth it can't be modded to an A/G workhorse like the F-15D became the strike eagle.  Comparisons to the F-22 and this new Chinese fighter are like comparing an F-15 to an F-111.
3.  The F-35 is a stealthy viper with better information integration software.  Those systems can be put in ANY future aircraft and are true advances, but the plane itself is little more than a stealthy F-16.  The F-35 is gonna suck at air superiority and it doesn't have the range or payload to replace the F-15E.  It is also only front aspect stealthy, so anything left alive after the strike is over will take a shot at the retreating F-35s after they drop their 2 bombs and run out of gas, because they are not rear-aspect stealthy.

This Chinese fighter is something the US wishes it had the money and balls to produce, a stealthy deep strike fighter to be the true successor of the F-111, F-15E, and B-58 hustler.  It would be a massive game changer as a strategic deterrent for the US against any potential adversaries, and could actually potentially save trillions of dollars since it could allow us to reduce deterrent commitments elsewhere and act as a deterrent we might actually use against any smaller high-threat country that doesn't quite deserve nuking.  But we're not going to make one, even though the concept was pretty fully worked out with the "stretch" F-22 proposals.

[nrshida]

Is anybody here aware of the Dutch TV's NOVA documentary about the F-35? You should maybe watch it if your desire for objectivity outweighs your need to feel superior / dominant.

[Plawranc]

Eagl has spoken Tyrannis. And his word is good enough for me.

And all the talk you Americans have about Russian fighter jets is a load of nonsense, almost everyone on this board calls Sukhois and Migs "Ejector seat testers" or "USAF target drones". Its well known that in the F-22 and F-15's case they are BVR fighters, whereas Russian fighters are interceptors and dogfighters. Its like comparing a P-51 to a Zero, long range BnZer vs a carrier based turnfighter.

Eagl here, who was an actual F-15 pilot mentioned this in another thread. The conclusion was that the Sukhoi has a far greater turn radius and short range combat capability than anything in service in the USAF. The F-22's post stall technology narrowed the margin but the F-22 is a big heavy aircraft whose advantage lies in being stealthy and striking first, not engaging in close combat.

I think that this threat must be met with the greatest developments in aerial warfare since the cold war. The last time the US didnt take the Eastern powers seriously they ended up rushing an ASF in panic (F-15 A).

[Ardy123]

Everything I've seen about the F-35 is that she's a significant step backwards from the F-22.

Stalin once said...
Quantity is a quality all on its own.

and he was right.. the Germans had the best tanks, but they were too complicated to build quickly and in large numbers... the Russians and Americans made huge hordes of tanks, none of which were as 'advanced' as the German tanks but it didn't matter.

I remember hearing somewhere that it took 4 Shermans to take out a tigerII tank, 3 to die and one to shoot it in the back while it was killing the other three.

...and long as there more than a 4-1 ratio, the Shermans still win the battle.

[clerick]

How stealthy is it really?  It has some stealth features (ie. scalloped edges on doors et.c.) but the over all look appears to be too "Straight."  IIRC the reason the F22 and the B2 are so rounded and loopy is because they can't have any continuous curves so all curves must have a constantly changing radius or, the weird faceted look of the F117.\\

[321BAR]

The F-35 was designed as a replacement for the Harrier. The plans for US mass production was scrapped due to the fact that it did not meet any of the US requirements. The F-35 is still a formidable aircraft in its own right but will never be an air to air fighter. It will be an electronic counter measure/part stealth assault aircraft that along with fighter protection will be able to do its job. Remember that its ECM unit will be able to make up for the lack of stealth on the F-35. It will also be able to be mass produced cheaper than the F-22.

Also. The Russian and Chinese 5th Gen fighters are considered to be stealthy. This all comes down to the radar sbsorbant material used in their construction. Both countries have lagged in all tech advancements compared to NATO style units. You really think these fighters have stealth yet because both countries government say they do?

[Tyrannis]

Eagl has spoken Tyrannis. And his word is good enough for me.

And all the talk you Americans have about Russian fighter jets is a load of nonsense, almost everyone on this board calls Sukhois and Migs "Ejector seat testers" or "USAF target drones". Its well known that in the F-22 and F-15's case they are BVR fighters, whereas Russian fighters are interceptors and dogfighters. Its like comparing a P-51 to a Zero, long range BnZer vs a carrier based turnfighter.

Eagl here, who was an actual F-15 pilot mentioned this in another thread. The conclusion was that the Sukhoi has a far greater turn radius and short range combat capability than anything in service in the USAF. The F-22's post stall technology narrowed the margin but the F-22 is a big heavy aircraft whose advantage lies in being stealthy and striking first, not engaging in close combat.

I think that this threat must be met with the greatest developments in aerial warfare since the cold war. The last time the US didnt take the Eastern powers seriously they ended up rushing an ASF in panic (F-15 A).

curious little fact: the f15 was the first ever american fighter to be designed with maneuverability in mind.


if i had the choice to create my own airforce, i would have american planes, with isreali pilots. now thats an airforce that would make any country shudder.

[Plawranc]

The F-35 was designed as a replacement for the Harrier. The plans for US mass production was scrapped due to the fact that it did not meet any of the US requirements. The F-35 is still a formidable aircraft in its own right but will never be an air to air fighter. It will be an electronic counter measure/part stealth assault aircraft that along with fighter protection will be able to do its job. Remember that its ECM unit will be able to make up for the lack of stealth on the F-35. It will also be able to be mass produced cheaper than the F-22.

Also. The Russian and Chinese 5th Gen fighters are considered to be stealthy. This all comes down to the radar sbsorbant material used in their construction. Both countries have lagged in all tech advancements compared to NATO style units. You really think these fighters have stealth yet because both countries government say they do?

Well Bar, radar absorbtion is about 5% of the process, the key to stealth is angles that minimize radar return, that either swallow the radars transmission with paint or just airscoops and so forth, or deflect the waves away from the reciever.

[321BAR]

Well Bar, radar absorbtion is about 5% of the process, the key to stealth is angles that minimize radar return, that either swallow the radars transmission with paint or just airscoops and so forth, or deflect the waves away from the reciever.

This is all done with the material used the F117's absorbant material also allows for it to deflect any radar signature (with its angles being used also here) that would return to the radar station....

The angles would mean nothing for the F117 without the material used on the external of the aircraft.

[Melvin]

Is anybody here aware of the Dutch TV's NOVA documentary about the F-35? You should maybe watch it if your desire for objectivity outweighs your need to feel superior / dominant.

Everyone knows that our need to feel superior/dominant will never diminish. We're just so good at it.

Everyone also knows that for some reason, the Dutch enjoy beating us up with KI's and documentaries.


I thought you'd have this figured out by now.     

[eagl]

I love reading expert debate on why stealth works for any particular aircraft, especially when nobody involved even knows of the existence of exciting reading material like the radar handbook, radar principles, introduction to radar systems, fundamentals of radar signal processing, etc.  If you don't know how it really works and how modern radars turn signals into what the operator sees on the screen, then any discussion about stealth is speculation down a path that probably used to be part of some secret project's cover story.

If you know how stealth works, you generally don't talk about it

A note about the Chinese aircraft, the intakes use a technology first fully applied in the F-35, for a supersonic non-diverting inlet.  Most supersonic inlets have diverter doors to control air pressure and velocity into the air intake.  These systems are heavy and can wreck the stealth signature of an aircraft but are generally required if you want to get your plane above about mach 1.4.  This is why the F-16 goes slower than the F-15 and why the B-1B is limited to just a hair above mach 1 - neither the F-16 or F-15 have variable inlets.  The curious bulge inside the inlet of the F-35 and that Chinese fighter both hides the face of the engine and inlet duct curves from view, and helps shape the airflow to manage pressure, flow, and shock waves during high speed flight.  The F-35 is the first production fighter to use that method and the Chinese appear to have used the technique as well.