5 cm FlaK 41 for new manned anti aircraft gun at town

[alpini13]

its been discussed before for a manned town gun but i believe the 90mm and 88mm anti aircraft guns might be TOO much for this game as is a full size battleship......and the current quad 20mm wirb and 37mm flak arnt enough for a whol town defense againt higher flying bombers and armoured gv's.....so how about something in the middle the german 5 cm FlaK 41(50mm automatic)
This gas-operated, automatic, antiaircraft gun .The breech mechanism is similar to that of the 3.7 cm Flak 43. It differs in that the breech block drops into the closed position from the open position. The dropping of the block allows buttress guides on the block to engage with similar guides on the jacket. This locks the block in the firing position and prevents any rearward movement. The feed mechanism is operated by the recoil of the breech casing. The recuperator consists of two spiral springs which are mounted side by side in the cradle. The buffer is mounted centrally in the cradle.

The traversing gear and the sight are on the right hand side of the mounting. The sight bracket is connected by means of a parallel motion link to a cross shaft. Here it is keyed to a pointer on the elevation scale. The gun elevating gear is on the left side of the mounting. This is also connected to a pointer on the elevation scale. The layer keeps the two pointers in line and the gun is laid at the same angle of elevation as the sight.

SPECIFICATIONS

Caliber       5 cm (1.97 ins.)

Weight (traveling position)  7.18 tons

Weight (firing position)  4.30 tons

Length (traveling position)  27 ft., 5.5 ins.

Length (firing position)  19 ft., 10 ins.

Height (traveling position)  7 ft., 1 in.

Height (firing position)  7 ft., 4 ins.

Width (overall-traveling)  7 ft., 10 ins.

Width of trail spread   

Length of gun (incl. muzzle brake)  184.5 ins.

Length of gun (excl. muzzle brake)  170.8 ins.

Length of rifling  117.28 ins.

No. of grooves  20

Width of grooves  0.160 in.

Depth of grooves  0.020 in.

Width of lands   

Muzzle velocity (H.E. shell)  2,756 f/s

Firing mechanism protrusion  0.1 in.

Max. range (horizontal), APCBC  11,300 yds.

Max. range (vertical), APCBC  8,600 yds.

Effective ceiling  10,000 ft.

Rate of fire  130 r.p.m.

Traverse  360°

Elevation  90°

Depression  -10°

Length of recoil  7 ins. (approx.)

Ammunition  H.E. 41/tracer; Incendiary/H.E. 41/tracer; A.P.C.B.C. 42

Wt. of projectile  H.E.—4.8 lbs.

   A.P.—4.87 lbs.

Tracer burn out point  Short (8 sec.) 2,740-3,750 yds.

   Long (18 sec.) 5,400-6,120 yds.

[LLogann]

Getting "bigger" with a manned gun might prove as worthless as not having it.  Slower rates of fire combined with poor aiming would really do no good.  We'd be better off it was installed as an auto-cannon I think. 

And isn't the FLAK-41 & 43 an 8.8cm round?

[Lusche]

And isn't the FLAK-41 & 43 an 8.8cm round?

Only in case of the 8.8 cm Flak 41 & 43

[alpini13]

yes rate of fire would be an issue...and as this is about 9 x faster rate of fire than the german 88mm antiaircraft gun,this might be better suited to defend the town against fast gv's and bombers and fighters below 13000 ft

[LLogann]

Only in case of the 8.8 cm Flak 41 & 43

So the one that was taken out of service by 1941 we're talking about....... 

If we are wishing for new FLAK, why not go for the Flakzwilling 40?  You even get to wear shorts!!!

[Lusche]

(Image removed from quote.)
So the one that was taken out of service by 1941 we're talking about.......

As far as I recall, no German flak gun was taken out of service during the war.

[LLogann]

You'll forgive me today, heavily medicated........  EDIT: Stopped production of...... 

As far as I recall, no German flak gun was taken out of service during the war.

[Lusche]

You'll forgive me today, heavily medicated........  EDIT: Stopped production of...... 

Which gun exactly are you referring to?

[LLogann]

The Flak41, 5.0cm anti air flak cannon designed by Rheinmetall, manufactured by Krupp.

Which gun exactly are you referring to?

[Lusche]

The Flak41, 5.0cm anti air flak cannon designed by Rheinmetall.

Ah yes. That gun was only produced in very small numbers for a very short time, though the guns produced were kept in service until 1945
But that was a industrial decision. In the face of bigger, faster and much better armored ground attack planes, the units demanded a bigger gun with a more effective and longer ranged round than the old 37mm one. It was the ministry for weapons & ammunitions that objected the production of an intermediate caliber.

Getting "bigger" with a manned gun might prove as worthless as not having it.  Slower rates of fire combined with poor aiming would really do no good. 

Interestingly the AH experience is quite a different one than in real life. The Ostwind was the successor to the Wirbelwind, as the WW's armament was judged to be not efficient enough. In AH, almost everyone prefers the WW, for good reasons.

[LLogann]

Nobody ever wants to learn how to aim the Ostwind..........   

Interestingly the AH experience is quite a different one than in real life. The Ostwind was the successor to the Wirbelwind, as the WW's armament was judged to be not efficient enough. In AH, almost everyone prefers the WW, for good reasons.

Ok, here it is, by popular demand, the key, the secret, the way to consistently kill at high deflection in an Ostwind. I write this for one reason and one reason only: to make vulching, which is just spawn camping planes with planes, as unpleasant an experience as possible and totally non-viable as a method to pad fighter scores.

There are a few things to note. First, always park your Ostwind on concrete somewhere. Second, always have your clipboard open and your mouse cursor on the Tower button so you can end mission quickly if you hear ordnance about to plop on your head. Third, learn where to park your Ostwind. In AH2 there are two main places to park it: near, but not too near, the Fighter Hangers, and near the tower on a small field or near the nexus of runways at a medium or large field for vulcher slaying. In some situations you may not want to park at all, such as when there are no friendly aircraft to amuse the vulchers, in this situation go up and down the runways in 5th gear maintaining a straight line path to make compensating for your own movement as easy as possible.

As far as aiming goes, the core principle is rather simple, some may have already heard me state it. Always fire fully zoomed in. While fully zoomed in, a target traveling roughly parallel or perpendicular to the ground at a range of 1k will be hit if kept exactly at the edge of your screen. Therefore a target 500 away should be kept halfway from the edge of your screen to your crosshair. This is the basis for all shots. Now off angle shots you must judge by the aircraft's attitude, speed and size as to how much extra or less to lead it relative to the base amount, always leading in the direction of the target plane's nose. Always lead your target slightly more than you think you should and slightly above to allow for shell drop, and keep your turret swivel motion as smooth and fluid as possible. On large targets and slower than average targets lead a little less, on small and fast targets lead a little more.

Another thing to realize, while an Ostwind shell can technically kill at distances approaching 3k, never ever fire over 1.5k for one simple reason. The smoothing code or whatever does an adjustment at 1.5k; you will notice a small burp or hiccup in the planes position so at distances over 1.5k you are not actually seeing the plane where it really is. You'll notice this effect on bombers, it is especially pronounced with the drones in a formation. I almost never shoot beyond 1.2k on anything that isn't just coming directly at or away from me. The 1k distance is really where you want to be firing; it's the key to accurate deflection shooting in the Ostwind.

To sum this up really simply:

# 1k away = target at the edge of your visible screen.
# 750 away = target is 3/4s of the distance from crosshair to edge.
# 500 away = halfway from your crosshair to the edge of screen.
# 250 away = 1/4 the distance from your crosshair to the edge.

This only works if you are Fully Zoomed in! (of course you do your scanning un-zoomed). Only fire fully zoomed in, there is no reason to fire partially zoomed in. I have experimented with this at various resolutions. There is no difference between where the shell goes relative to the centerline position fully zoomed in or fully zoomed out, however at some resolutions there is a difference if only partially zoomed in. My guide only works if you are fully zoomed in when firing. I've tried it at everything from 800X600 to 1600X1200 on a 17" screen to a 21" screen it works the same. If there is any difference it's so small as to be within the shell's trajectory margin of variability and irrelevant. I also recommend being fully Page-Up'd by default.

One thing to realize when shooting is there is a fairly large 'spread'. The key to hitting any target, but especially those heading generally toward and away from you is to lead their nose not where the plane appears to be. This is especially true on planes heading away from you as your shell takes quite some time to get there relatively speaking. So, in your example where he just flew over you and is heading away if he is shallow diving to deck lead below him, but if he's shallow climbing lead above him. You judge by how much by watching his nose attitude and the distance, the further away the more lead to compensate for the shell drop.

The shell drop to targets up to 1k away is fairly insignificant, over that distance it becomes increasingly and incrementally more significant. The amount the shell drops under 1k is smaller than the variability of the 'spread' to you can aim a hair above but not more if you want but usually you don't need to.

The faster the plane is going the more you have to lead relative to the base amount. A bandit going 500mph but 800 away you will have to have him about on the edge of the screen as if he were going 300'ish but 1k away. Conversely, a bandit going only 200 mph but 1k away you only need to lead him 3/4 of the way to the edge. It's something you have to get a feel for, but as I stated in the original post, smaller and/or faster targets lead more than the base amount, slower and/or large targets lead less. My formula in the original post is based on an average plane like the P51 going an average speed of 325'ish.

The Field gun is EXACTLY the same in every way to the Ostwind as far as aiming is concerned. The only differences are:

1) The field gun seems to be more accurate, has less spread and slightly longer effective range. This is probably due to a significantly longer barrel and being in a fixed position as opposed to a less stable vehicle platform.

2) The field gun has a slightly slower rate of fire, this means a target is more likely to, "Thread the needle", between your stream even if your lead is perfect.

3) The field gun has better 360 degree visibility as there is no tank chassis and turret housing to obstruct your view. So, it is much easier to maintain situational awareness, as it were, in a field gun.

4) Obviously the field gun is much easier to kill, a single cannon round even close to a field gun will blow it, but then again you can't 'die' in a field gun either...

As far as aiming as illustrated in my original post there is absolutely no difference. If you are good in an Ostwind you will be good in a field gun and vice versa, it's the same 37mm cannon.

Hope this helps! Death to vulchers!

[alpini13]

limited numbers?????   oh...you mean like the P-47M and the TA-152 that are currently IN the game......well they made more 5 cm FlaK 41 50mm flak guns than the total production of p-47m and ta-152 combined....i guess although those two rides are limited also,they were not limited enough to be included in the game. thanks for making my point as they were made in enough numbers to be included

[LLogann]

The word "limited" appears three times in this whole thread.........

limited numbers?????   oh...you mean like the P-47M and the TA-152 that are currently IN the game......well they made more 5 cm FlaK 41 50mm flak guns than the total production of p-47m and ta-152 combined....i guess although those two rides are limited also,they were not limited enough to be included in the game. thanks for making my point as they were made in enough numbers to be included

And not even a comment about the freedom of wearing shorts to work?