Author Topic: Lazy 30mm question  (Read 4079 times)

Offline moot

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 16333
      • http://www.dasmuppets.com
Re: Lazy 30mm question
« Reply #60 on: January 18, 2011, 10:45:33 PM »
Yep, find a convergence setting that's comfy - that puts the rounds where you most often want/need em - and fly around any of that convergence setting's shortcomings.
Hello ant
running very fast
I squish you

Offline Muzzy

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1404
Re: Lazy 30mm question
« Reply #61 on: January 19, 2011, 12:05:52 AM »
Well 300 seems to work for me.  I've gotten 2 kills out at 400 with no trouble on that setting.


CO 111 Sqdn Black Arrows

Wng Cdr, No. 2 Tactical Bomber Group, RAF, "Today's Target" Scenario. "You maydie, but you will not be bored!"

Offline bustr

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12436
Re: Lazy 30mm question
« Reply #62 on: January 19, 2011, 12:45:04 AM »
Then this as a technical simulation seems to be much less concerned about faithfull accuracy at one of the two ends of some wheapons systems since there is no mechanical way to set the elevation above 0-datum motor line with the MK108 or MG151/20 in any motor cannon mounted aircraft Germany produced. At this stage in HiTech's coading genius I doubt he would have any trouble revamping the affected wheapons systems to the manufacturers mounting specifications.

But, again maybe HTC has never had the manuals translated I'm refrencing since there is so much english language translated and post WW2 U.S. government technical data available to coad these systems with. And it seems this audience is vested completely in the results of sticking the pointy stick in the mammoth, in this mammoth hunting simulation, rather than the process behind the pointy stick getting there is a narrow focus worm hole rather than direct arm power.

BFG9000, Chain guns and particule beam sniper rifles anyone?
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline moot

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 16333
      • http://www.dasmuppets.com
Re: Lazy 30mm question
« Reply #63 on: January 19, 2011, 12:55:52 AM »
MK108 & MG151 aren't nearly turned into wonder weapons due to convergence freedom.  Or I'm misreading you.
Hello ant
running very fast
I squish you

Offline kilo2

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3445
Re: Lazy 30mm question
« Reply #64 on: January 19, 2011, 12:57:49 AM »
Did not think that convergence was that big of a deal.
X.O. Kommando Nowotny
FlyKommando.com

"Never abandon the possibility of attack."

Offline Muzzy

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1404
Re: Lazy 30mm question
« Reply #65 on: January 19, 2011, 01:01:11 AM »
The only reason I asked was because in-game, I know the 30mm tends to do strange things depending on where convergence was set.  I've heard arguments about whether to set it at 200, 300 or all the way out to 600.  Turns out 300 was right for me, so...

But wow...didn't mean to spark all this debate and discussion, interesting as it was.


CO 111 Sqdn Black Arrows

Wng Cdr, No. 2 Tactical Bomber Group, RAF, "Today's Target" Scenario. "You maydie, but you will not be bored!"

Offline mtnman

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2438
Re: Lazy 30mm question
« Reply #66 on: January 19, 2011, 08:43:28 AM »
The only reason I asked was because in-game, I know the 30mm tends to do strange things depending on where convergence was set.  I've heard arguments about whether to set it at 200, 300 or all the way out to 600.  Turns out 300 was right for me, so...

But wow...didn't mean to spark all this debate and discussion, interesting as it was.

And that's actually what I'm interested in...

What "strange things" does it do?  Why are they "strange", and how does the convergence setting effect it?

I don't fly the 109's much at all.  By far the most experience I have with it is in the TA, when I've been asked to teach folks in it.  But...  I've never found it to do anything "strange" gunnery-wise, and haven't found it to be tough to hit anything with, or had trouble getting kills with it in the MA when I've occasionally flown it.

Are the "strange things" really occurring at all?  If they are, are they really related to convergence?  Or, are they related to something else, but blamed on convergence?  Maybe a general misunderstanding of what's going on is leading to the blame being directed where it doesn't belong.

I think we need a list of strange 30mm things so we can investigate...
MtnMan

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not". Thomas Jefferson

Offline Muzzy

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1404
Re: Lazy 30mm question
« Reply #67 on: January 19, 2011, 09:09:16 AM »
The shells have a bit of an arc to them.  They hit dead on at convergence, but closer in they tend to be high, and further out they drop.  I experienced this recently while trying to bag a Yak at 400 out. I fired a shell with my sights set slightly above the target and got a dead-on hit.


CO 111 Sqdn Black Arrows

Wng Cdr, No. 2 Tactical Bomber Group, RAF, "Today's Target" Scenario. "You maydie, but you will not be bored!"

Offline Lusche

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23888
      • Last.FM Profile
Re: Lazy 30mm question
« Reply #68 on: January 19, 2011, 09:13:00 AM »
The shells have a bit of an arc to them.  They hit dead on at convergence, but closer in they tend to be high, and further out they drop.  I experienced this recently while trying to bag a Yak at 400 out. I fired a shell with my sights set slightly above the target and got a dead-on hit.

This is nothing "strange". This is happening to all guns, it's just more pronounced with the MK-108 because of it's relatively low muzzle mvelocity.
Steam: DrKalv
E:D Snailman

Offline Muzzy

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1404
Re: Lazy 30mm question
« Reply #69 on: January 19, 2011, 09:19:42 AM »
This is nothing "strange". This is happening to all guns, it's just more pronounced with the MK-108 because of it's relatively low muzzle mvelocity.


 :aok What he says.


CO 111 Sqdn Black Arrows

Wng Cdr, No. 2 Tactical Bomber Group, RAF, "Today's Target" Scenario. "You maydie, but you will not be bored!"

Offline mtnman

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2438
Re: Lazy 30mm question
« Reply #70 on: January 19, 2011, 09:30:32 AM »
The shells have a bit of an arc to them.  They hit dead on at convergence, but closer in they tend to be high, and further out they drop.  I experienced this recently while trying to bag a Yak at 400 out. I fired a shell with my sights set slightly above the target and got a dead-on hit.

That's not strange though, that's what would be expected by anyone who's shot a rifle (assuming you have your convergence set inside 400).  

Nose-mounted guns shouldn't do anything remotely "strange" as guns mounted well below the LoS, and/or out on the wings.  If you combined "well below the LoS and "out on the wings", then I could certainly see how people would be confused.

In my F4U with a 300yd convergence, I see the opposite effect as you describe.  My rounds are low closer-in, and slightly high at 400...  With a closer convergence, it's even worse!  With a 150yd convergence, I'm still low closer-in, but I'll actually miss a 600yd shot because my rounds are so high they'll go right over it (and pass over or outside his wingtips too, if I aim at his tail).  I'd actually shoot over a target at 300yds with a 150yd convergence, which is polar opposite of what most would assume.

Wing-mounted guns are much more confusing (and critical) when it comes to convergence.  Which is one reason why someone would go through the trouble of figuring out a way to mount the guns in/on the fuselage, even if it meant running it through the engine, or firing between the propeller blades.  The forgiveness the nose-mounted guns offer for firing while banked, and because they're so much closer to the LoS is significant too.

I'm actually tempted to go map out the 30mm convergences now.
MtnMan

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not". Thomas Jefferson

Offline Der Jude

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 158
Re: Lazy 30mm question
« Reply #71 on: January 22, 2011, 12:07:51 PM »
can someone shrink grizz's physics equation picture to avatar size so that i may enjoy it more frequently? oh yeah an why would you need to set a convergence on a gun that shoots straight out the nose of a plane?
« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 12:09:26 PM by Der Jude »
Game ID: Judisch
Kommando Nowotny - Nowotny Schwarm "White 19"
Til Schweiger Fan Club
ZLA- "Dont Focke Wulf Us!"
Malta Scenario - Comrade Jew

Offline Edgar

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 212
Re: Lazy 30mm question
« Reply #72 on: January 22, 2011, 12:28:03 PM »
oh yeah an why would you need to set a convergence on a gun that shoots straight out the nose of a plane?

Because convergence is vertical as well as horizontal. Even though no left to right adjustment would be necessary when a gun is fired directly out the center of the aircraft, you will still need to "lob" the projectile (depending on the mass and the velocity of that projectile) to hit between the cross hairs at your convergence distance. The heavier and slower the muzzle velocity, the more "lob" that would need to be put on a projectile to hit the target at any given distance. This is further exacerbated by setting the convergence out to a longer distance, the projectile has to be lobbed even higher to compensate for the drop due to gravity.

<S>
Edgar
XO
VMF-222 ~Flying Deuces~
http://www.vmf-222.com/

Offline Edgar

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 212
Re: Lazy 30mm question
« Reply #73 on: January 22, 2011, 05:32:34 PM »
taterphysics avatar
« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 05:34:24 PM by Edgar »
XO
VMF-222 ~Flying Deuces~
http://www.vmf-222.com/

Offline Der Jude

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 158
Re: Lazy 30mm question
« Reply #74 on: January 24, 2011, 01:03:25 PM »
ah i see. well at risk of sounding luft-noobish i guess that means the shorter the convergence, the higher up the 30mm points? right now i have my head position all the way up on the k4 and convergence set at 650. it works, but dead 6 i always have to aim at the top of the enemies cockpit to get a direct hit. i think its my head position but it could be the 650 convergence
Game ID: Judisch
Kommando Nowotny - Nowotny Schwarm "White 19"
Til Schweiger Fan Club
ZLA- "Dont Focke Wulf Us!"
Malta Scenario - Comrade Jew