109 Hammerhead reversal question

[Owlblink]

I've been flying the 109K for a month or two now, I manage to land a few kills here and there and have made use of the torque roll defense to cause a con to overshoot. I try to use the vertical as much as possible in a fight but I feel like I must be doing something wrong. On occasions I can get myself around at the top to come down after an enemy plane, though most of the time, when I try to perform the hammerhead, I end up torque spinning a few times at the top instead of reversing back down.

What I've been doing, based on what I've been told, is to throttle down at the top, push forward-left on the stick, apply left rudder, and then roll the throttle back up just enough to make the plane turn over. Perhaps I am turning the throttle on too soon? I've also tried popping flaps out to hang a bit longer but this seems to keep me from being able to push forward on the stick, so I'm guessing I should avoid hanging on the flaps unless I absolutely need to hang a bit longer.

Can anyone explain to me the timing on the controls, or perhaps point out my mistake in control input? I'd love some training on this if someone has the free time to walk me more thoroughly through it, however well written instruction would be just as appreciated if someone could share their wisdom.
 

P.S. you guys  thanks for taking your time to read my post

[Hollywood]

I'm not a 109 expert but I'll take a shot at this.  I think you are running yourself out of airspeed at the top.  Without any forward (i.e. upward) movement your rudder will have no effect.  I would try to reverse at about 60-80 mph.

[Ardy123]

Owlblink...

Do you remember the simple exercises I showed you where all you do is a power on and power off stall? the move you are trying is based on fully understanding how torque and throttle management 'moves' your plane.

I end up torque spinning a few times at the top instead of reversing back down.

This is happening because of two things... too much throttle when you are bellow 100 mph, and you may be waiting too long(ie.. too slow) to execute the maneuver.

Perhaps I am turning the throttle on too soon? I've also tried popping flaps out to hang a bit longer but this seems to keep me from being able to push forward on the stick, so I'm guessing I should avoid hanging on the flaps unless I absolutely need to hang a bit longer.

Flaps won't make the move easier or harder, flaps reduce your needed recovery alt and cause you to get to a slower speed quicker when going straight vert.

Also, remember, don't slam the throttle, gently pull the throttle off or push the throttle on.
Can you post a video of yourself trying?  Then I can analyze it and tell you exactly why.

[Agent360]

<<<snip>>>
What I've been doing, based on what I've been told, is to throttle down at the top, push forward-left on the stick, apply left rudder, and then roll the throttle back up just enough to make the plane turn over. Perhaps I am turning the throttle on too soon? I've also tried popping flaps out to hang a bit longer but this seems to keep me from being able to push forward on the stick, so I'm guessing I should avoid hanging on the flaps unless I absolutely need to hang a bit longer.
<<<snip>>>

You are applying rudder in the wrong direction...you should use FULL RIGHT RUDDER.....once the planes nose drops then use left rudder and throttle to control the nose.

If you use left rudder you increase the spin..the tork is to the left...left rudder will just snap you over without control and you will as you describe tumble several times.

[grizz441]

My guess is that you are pulling vertical too soon.  I would try drawing the bogey into the horizontal component for a tad bit longer before hooking it up into the vertical.  Typically throttle work is only required if the bogey cuts his throttle or is slow to begin with.

[Muzzy]

 

I don't suppose you could post a step by step procedure list for this move?

[Hollywood]

It would be nice if someone could post a video of this with voice commentary.  I'd like to see how its done.

[Ardy123]

ok here is a film of me doing it to the left... It's sloppy as you can see me roll a little, but its the general idea.
http://www.mediafire.com/file/bba0qc85tirdb11/left-hammerhead.ahf

Here is a film of me fighting (dedalos, I hope you don't mind), and in the top of the second merge, I perform a variation of that move but in a spit16.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/c2i8g17pdbv8wl2/fightonstall.ahf

The key with the move is not the move itself, but the ability to control the plane using the engine torque and to help understand how to use your throttle and rudder to change direction.

[Owlblink]

Owlblink...

Also, remember, don't slam the throttle, gently pull the throttle off or push the throttle on.
Can you post a video of yourself trying?  Then I can analyze it and tell you exactly why.

I'll get to that later today, have a class at noon (central time). I'll try to add commentary as to what inputs I'm using if that helps at all.

You are applying rudder in the wrong direction...you should use FULL RIGHT RUDDER.....once the planes nose drops then use left rudder and throttle to control the nose.

If you use left rudder you increase the spin..the tork is to the left...left rudder will just snap you over without control and you will as you describe tumble several times.

I trust your advice Agent and will give this a try also. I thought Bunnies told me left rudder for how he does it, but I'll have to go back and listen carefully to the video I took. Thanks for the advice, I'll try it both ways and record it to see what effects I get.

I've also been using a forward left push on my stick with the rudder, should I hold off on that? I'll try that as well and see what I get

[mechanic]

Owlblink,

I was going to say the same thing as Agent360, except for a different reason.

You mentioned forward-left stick and left rudder to make the hammer head. This is your problem. It is not just to do with torque.

A hammer head needs to have opposing ailerons and rudder input. So if you push forward-left, you need right rudder. Or forward-right...left rudder.

The rudder should goes the opposite way to the ailerons in a hammerhead. The aileron input is to stop the aircraft rolling, and if you put too much you will just roll the other way. So it's FULL rudder and OPPOSITE aileron, with the aileron input being gentle and calculated, not full.

Also with regard to STICK FORWARD: If you jam the stick forward too far whilst using the rudder you will also induce roll. So both aileron and elevators should be gentle and calculated, not full.

[Hollywood]

Thanks for the film Ardy and for those offering explanations.  You rule 

[Ardy123]

BatfinkV & Agent...

There are some discrepancies here but I'm going to try and clarify them...

1) As your going up and getting slow, give right rudder to keep the ball in the center.
2) As your speed hits 65, this is where I gently pull off throttle and kick LEFT rudder & forward left stick, causing  the plane to fall on its left wing tip.
3) Then as the left wing tip points to the ground, I gently to pull on the throttle to pull the nose toward the ground.

Agent and Batfink I think are describing something simpler, where you keep the nose up giving right rudder then you use the engine torque to roll the plane upside down, while the nose drops.

[mechanic]

heya Ardy, you are talking more specificaly about the 109 which is good. I was just explaining basic controls in any plane, not even talking about throttle.

[Hollywood]

What are the advantages of a hammerhead vs a low speed loop over the top?  Apart from bringing you down with a different orientation that is.

[Ardy123]

What are the advantages of a hammerhead vs a low speed loop over the top?  Apart from bringing you down with a different orientation that is.

1) you are moving very slow at the top, so you can force or prevent an overshoot
2) you can reverse directions in a very narrow amount of space
3) Not all pilots can do it and will stall out trying to follow or counter.
4) Can be done at the top of a rope to squeeze every inch out of the vert and still remained control to make the shot.

heya Ardy, you are talking more specificaly about the 109 which is good. I was just explaining basic controls in any plane, not even talking about throttle.

ahh, ok.