Torque or Power ?

[CAP1]

The new Camaro looks like it does because GM didn't want ot pay the kid that drew the original, which looks better.

I'm a Chevy guy, but the new Camaro is too wide, too heavy, and too expensive. It needs to go on a diet and lose 800 pounds. The Camaro is the size and weight of a loaded early seventies Chevelle. And that's a Chevelle with an all iron big block (700 pounds by itself) and a steel perimeter frame, compared to the Camaro having an all aluminum LS generation small block and a mostly sheetmetal floor pan.

Chevrolet needs to build one that weighs 3100 pounds and has a live rear axle, but doesn't have all the high dollar added options. If they left out all the crap, and just had power steering, power brakes, and A/C, they could have a stunningly quick Camaro that could be sold for about $25K list. The emissions would be lower, and the fuel economy higher. Even the V6 version would be pretty quick, and it would probably get 35MPG on the interstate, my 98 Firebird V6 does that.

It's funny, Ford and Chrysler both build drag race "specials" of the Mustang and the Challenger, but Chevrolet won't build one with the Camaro, and they have the "parts bin" to build the best of the three.

The Challenger is the best looking of the three "retro" muscle cars, but street version is just as much of a tank as the Camaro. The thing is, the "Drag Pack" Challenger is almost 900 pounds lighter than the street car.

ford is also going for the road race crowd with the boss 302. it pulls over 1g on the skid pad, laps laguna faster than a  beemer m3, and can stop so hard it'll rip your eyeballs out. 

[CAP1]

The Z-28 is coming. Weight wise the camaro is in between the Mustang (which weighs less) and the Challenger (which weighs more).

You can remove the stock mufflers and replace with after market and save over 50 lbs on the Camaro.

It is amazing how much these new car weigh. It is also amazing how much HP they are generating and how they get it to the ground.

chevy's using a 6 liter? ford's using a 5 liter. still only putting about 400ho to the ground on the base gt's, but they're claiming 440 to the ground on the boss versions.

[Skuzzy]

The new Boss 302 also has a trick exhaust system with removeable baffles.  With the baffles out, it will not pass sound tests in most states, but for the track, it does cause things to get even more hectic.

It has been a long time since Ford has been really serious about a hot rod.  I LIKE IT!

[Shuffler]

The new Boss 302 also has a trick exhaust system with removeable baffles.  With the baffles out, it will not pass sound tests in most states, but for the track, it does cause things to get even more hectic.

It has been a long time since Ford has been really serious about a hot rod.  I LIKE IT!

Yup..... The mustang looked really nice till they fubared the rear end.  I personally think all three retros look great except the stang rear as stated.

[CAP1]

Yup..... The mustang looked really nice till they fubared the rear end.  I personally think all three retros look great except the stang rear as stated.

i didn't like it at first....but it's grown on me.

 i didn't like the tail lights in the first of the stang retros, as at night they looked like crap. the new ones you can see the tell-tale 3 bar lights on it.

besides.....if i'm driving one, i'll never need to worry about looking at the tail lights. 

[Tyrannis]

The new 2011 charger looks very nice as well. still retaining that aggressive styling in the front while its getting a redone rear.

only thing i dont like about it is it's still 4-door.  

[CAP1]

if it's gonna be a dodge, then it HAS to be the challenger.

[rstel01]

Not trying to derail this thread but, since I saw the Challenger thrown around a few times in this thread,

Last October I bought my first Mopar (Besides a 2008 JK Jeep which I also have) after about 30 years of non-stop Mustang ownership in about every conceivable performance model. I still have two Mustangs (One SN-95 GT Vert and One 84 Fox 5.0 20th Anny Car).  

I traded in my seldom used 03 Mach 1 (9,000 miles after 7 years) on a 2010 R/T Classic, Super Track Pack, 6-Speed Challenger and couldn't be happier.




I thought about a GT-500 a few times, thought about holding out for a Boss but the S-197 just doesn't do it for me. Nothing against the car, I even set up my Daughter for a S-197 Convert (her 3rd Mustang).

As far as I am concerned, the Challenger and Mustang are not the same class of car. Challenger is more "personal luxury performance coupe" than Pony Car. People seem to compare the two on an apples to apples comparison when the cars are not really the same class. It more follows what the Chevelle-T-Bird style was.  

I am actually sad I only got about two months of driving on the Challenger before putting it away for the winter. It by far is the best road trip car I have ever had, unlike most Mustangs you don't need a visit to a chiropractor after 3 states of driving.

Handling and ride is excellent, I like the IRS and you would be very surprised on what an STP equipped car can do in that department. Sure it's gonna trail a new Coyote powered S-197 with Ford's track pack around Watkins Glen or Summit Point but, not as much as one might think. Everybody rags on it's 4K curb weight, realistically B.F.D! You don't notice it's weight and with the amount of crap people carry around anyway. Granted jumping into my 84 2600lb Fox putting down about 270hp from the almost 400hp in 4K lb Challenger is a night and day difference in driving styles!      

Straight line performance is wonderful but, it will lose again to a new Coyote S-197. As far as it being a mid-12's car, not going to happen. Realistically very low 13's, you can achieve mid 12's with an auto much easier than with a 6 speed car but I don't do slushboxes. Even at best, I would wring 12.8's out of that SN-95 DOHC Mach 1 and I was running 4:10's, Drag Radials, 31 Spline shafts and a Auburn Pro locker. Plus, that was an aggressive launch slightly slipping the clutch under track conditions. Street Light to Street Light, the nod goes to the Challenger. It will sit in low 13's with zero drama unlike the majority of most 4.6 DOHC cars. Sorry to the Ford faithful but, the 5.7 VVT is way more usable throughout the entire spectrum than the SOHC and 3-valve 4.6 cars. My Daily Drive is a 2010 4.6 Grand Marquis and I still own a 4.6 SOHC GT Convert, I'll take the "Hemi" (even though they aren't true hemi's anymore) over the 2 valve Modular any day.        

I chose the 'Classic" R/T with the Super Track Pack over the SRT-8 for my own reasons and at the end of the day, with this Challenger optioned the way I wanted it actually came in more than I could have taken an SRT-8 home for. A car length here or there isn't my main consideration anymore, the only real "downside" is not being able to get the Brembo's on the "Classic" (performance pads for the STP package, otherwise the normal R/T calipers) since they only come with the SRT (the PBR's on the Mach1 were awesome)

I am really really happy with this car, the only thing (and it's a long shot) would to be get rid of this one later in 2011 or early 2012 for the new 392 SRT Challenger. That motor is a quantum leap compared to the older 6.1

I don't know if anyone saw this but, after Sema Dodge took the stock "show" 392's out to Infineon just to run. Scary Impressive for this stock 6 speed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFbxZZtywZ0&feature=player_embedded

The other ones out which have been dyno'd and run by independent sources confirm just how much of a game changer this car and powertrain are.            

[Saurdaukar]

That's a good-looking car, right there.  Well done.

Get some coilovers, drop it a couple inches and you'll have some show AND some go. 


And WTF is Hajo in this thread?  Is his MOPAR alarm not going off? 

[Big Rat]

chevy's using a 6 liter? ford's using a 5 liter. still only putting about 400ho to the ground on the base gt's, but they're claiming 440 to the ground on the boss versions.

mod 5.0L is rated 400 sae (that's flywheel, not RWHP) big difference.  440 net figure will be lucky to hit 390 to the ground.  Eg. 405hp C5Z06, normally put down 350-360 to the ground.  Then again Ford did under rate the 03 cobras at 390 net.  I wouldn't get too excited about the new 5.0L's, having seen the mod motors due much without a blower on top of them, from the factory.  Remember the 4v cobras without the blower and the lawsuites when the GT's were outrunning them.  Plus the fact have you priced out modifying a Ford Modular motor vs doing an LSX engine.  Power for dollar you can't beat the LSX engines, plus their lighter and easier to work on.  This is coming from a former Ford guy.  Ford went the wrong way when they went to modular engines from a performance standpoint.  Don't get me wrong they are fine engines, for daily drivers.  Wife had an 02 5spd GT, was a reliable, semi-fun car, albeit my FRC has far more trunk space then it did .  Ford ticked off a lot of it's faithfull in the late 90's early 2000's, when chevrolet came out with the LS-1's and Ford didn't have anything comparable for a long time (2003).  I remember two buddies buying 1993 5.0L notch backs for $13,700, quite the performance bargain. Then the mustang got heavier and slower for a long time.

Don't get me wrong here I'm not saying that Ford makes a bad product in the mustang, not at all.  They sell the crap out of them.  From a hobby standpoint, and from someone who works on these things,  I find the LSX engines superior for my needs in almost every respect to the Ford modular engines.  Same goes for the new Hemi's as well, not a bad engine but larger, heavier, and more complex, then a comparable LSX. 

 
BigRat                   

[CAP1]

mod 5.0L is rated 400 sae (that's flywheel, not RWHP) big difference.  440 net figure will be lucky to hit 390 to the ground.  Eg. 405hp C5Z06, normally put down 350-360 to the ground.  Then again Ford did under rate the 03 cobras at 390 net.  I wouldn't get too excited about the new 5.0L's, having seen the mod motors due much without a blower on top of them, from the factory.  Remember the 4v cobras without the blower and the lawsuites when the GT's were outrunning them.  Plus the fact have you priced out modifying a Ford Modular motor vs doing an LSX engine.  Power for dollar you can't beat the LSX engines, plus their lighter and easier to work on.  This is coming from a former Ford guy.  Ford went the wrong way when they went to modular engines from a performance standpoint.  Don't get me wrong they are fine engines, for daily drivers.  Wife had an 02 5spd GT, was a reliable, semi-fun car, albeit my FRC has far more trunk space then it did .  Ford ticked off a lot of it's faithfull in the late 90's early 2000's, when chevrolet came out with the LS-1's and Ford didn't have anything comparable for a long time (2003).  I remember two buddies buying 1993 5.0L notch backs for $13,700, quite the performance bargain. Then the mustang got heavier and slower for a long time.

Don't get me wrong here I'm not saying that Ford makes a bad product in the mustang, not at all.  They sell the crap out of them.  From a hobby standpoint, and from someone who works on these things,  I find the LSX engines superior for my needs in almost every respect to the Ford modular engines.  Same goes for the new Hemi's as well, not a bad engine but larger, heavier, and more complex, then a comparable LSX. 

 
BigRat                   

 to be honest, i'm not familiar with the lsx or the coyote 5.0. from what i understand, the coyote is a totally different engine. i did think they were quoting rear wheel hp though.
 i have a customer whos son has a 2011 5.0, and loves it. he claimed 35mpg(that's just hearsay) at about 75mph, and not much problems so far reliability wise....

 reports i've read puts the stock gt's into the mid/high 12's. i haven't read a 1/4 mile time on the boss yet, but as mentioned it's been being run all last year in the continental tire series, supposedly with not too many problems.
 it almost looks like ford got a bug up their ass, and that's why the new boss mustang is happening. they seem to cruise along for a couple of years....then get that bug, do something really kick ass, then cruise along again........

as for the 4.6.....the single cammer....not so hot......the dual cammer..........had/has potential. i think that what went on with those engines, is that ford cheesed out a little to keep prices down, knowing that mustang owners tend to modify the poop out of their cars.

 just found this.......2011 gt comparison to a 2011 m3. you all might be surprised. 
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1010_2011_2011_ford_mustang_gt_vs_2011_bmw_m3_comparison/index.html


and here......SAE net is flywheel? or rear wheel?
http://www.ford.com/cars/mustang/specifications/engine/

all in all.......as much as i like fords.......i don't give a dam if it's a camaro, mustang, or challenger....all i really care about is that i'm getting to see a version of the horsepower wars that i was too young to appreciate back in the 60's. 

[Big Rat]

Did some checking on the new 5.0L, 412 advertised net rating (at engine), actual rear wheel numbers range from 375-395 (dyno's #'s vary quite a bit, even of the same make), but they give you a good ballpark, so average it at 385 (more then I thought it would). Considering a C5 Z06 at 405 net HP, normally dynoed in the 350-360 range. So it's probably actually underated quite a bit,should be closer to 425 net.  Now the question then becomes, is the boss equaly underated or is it closer to actual?, dyno numbers will be the telling.
 
Cap,

LSX engines just refer to an engine family LS1,2,3,4,6,7,9, and the truck engines such as the 5.3L 6.0L.  So I'm sure you already have been working on them, also referred to as Gen III or IV small blocks.  My only major complaint with modifying them is the non adjustable valvetrain, so you sometimes have to change pushrod lengths with cam changes.  But you can change the cam without pulling the intakes

 
BigRat

[Buzzard7]

What has 435 HP at 1800 rpm and 1650ft/lbs of torque at 1200 rpm?

[sntslilhlpr6601]

all in all.......as much as i like fords.......i don't give a dam if it's a camaro, mustang, or challenger....all i really care about is that i'm getting to see a version of the horsepower wars that i was too young to appreciate back in the 60's. 

I was just talking about this with my uncle recently. It's exciting to see. Was just getting into cars when all this started so I guess I'm lucky.

Yup..... The mustang looked really nice till they fubared the rear end.  I personally think all three retros look great except the stang rear as stated.

I actually like the new rear end, but then I'm a youngin' so my tastes are a bit different. Only slightly though. 

[Shuffler]

to be honest, i'm not familiar with the lsx or the coyote 5.0. from what i understand, the coyote is a totally different engine. i did think they were quoting rear wheel hp though.
 i have a customer whos son has a 2011 5.0, and loves it. he claimed 35mpg(that's just hearsay) at about 75mph, and not much problems so far reliability wise....

 reports i've read puts the stock gt's into the mid/high 12's. i haven't read a 1/4 mile time on the boss yet, but as mentioned it's been being run all last year in the continental tire series, supposedly with not too many problems.
 it almost looks like ford got a bug up their ass, and that's why the new boss mustang is happening. they seem to cruise along for a couple of years....then get that bug, do something really kick ass, then cruise along again........

as for the 4.6.....the single cammer....not so hot......the dual cammer..........had/has potential. i think that what went on with those engines, is that ford cheesed out a little to keep prices down, knowing that mustang owners tend to modify the poop out of their cars.

 just found this.......2011 gt comparison to a 2011 m3. you all might be surprised.  
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1010_2011_2011_ford_mustang_gt_vs_2011_bmw_m3_comparison/index.html


and here......SAE net is flywheel? or rear wheel?
http://www.ford.com/cars/mustang/specifications/engine/

all in all.......as much as i like fords.......i don't give a dam if it's a camaro, mustang, or challenger....all i really care about is that i'm getting to see a version of the horsepower wars that i was too young to appreciate back in the 60's.  

The bug was the camaro. The 6 cyl camaro was putting out almost as much HP as the mustang GT. They pumped up the 2011s and the HP wars are on again.

The Z28 will be supercharged from the factory.