Author Topic: To all the astronomy guys out there  (Read 1686 times)

Offline Shuffler

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 27070
Re: To all the astronomy guys out there
« Reply #45 on: January 31, 2011, 09:15:24 AM »
I'm always intrigued with images of space. When wab takes multiple shots and uses them together to enhace the light from the objects..... it's flat out amazing.

Thanks for posting pics.
80th FS "Headhunters"

S.A.P.P.- Secret Association Of P-38 Pilots (Lightning In A Bottle)

Offline CptTrips

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8269
Re: To all the astronomy guys out there
« Reply #46 on: January 31, 2011, 10:20:33 AM »
This is what I was working toward:


Whoa.  That looks a lot darker on my monitor at work than it did at home.  Thats the problem with posting astro photos on the net.  Its so sensetive to monitor calibration.

Wab
Toxic, psychotic, self-aggrandizing drama queens simply aren't worth me spending my time on.

Offline CptTrips

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8269
Re: To all the astronomy guys out there
« Reply #47 on: January 31, 2011, 10:39:13 AM »
ouf... good luck!
(Image removed from quote.)

Yeah.  That’s a sad state of affairs.  I’m blessed with some really dark skies still at my observatory site, but that won’t last forever.

Your grandchildren might grow up never having seen the Milkyway.  I had a buddy of mine who grew up in the metroplex his whole life and he was looking up saying “Are those clouds coming in?” and I answered “No dude, that’s the Milkyway.”  He had never seen it before.

On the bright-side (pardon the pun)  if you are in a urban area, you could focus your observing more towards Solar, Lunar, and planetary viewing.  That is unaffected by light pollution.  If fact, due to the temp inversions that develop over some cities, you can get quite excellent, steady air for high resolution observing.  The big factor then is if you are unlucky enough to be in a location that is permanently under the Jet stream.  The jet stream will greatly limit planetary viewing.

Clear Skies,
Wab

Toxic, psychotic, self-aggrandizing drama queens simply aren't worth me spending my time on.

Offline MORAY37

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2318
Re: To all the astronomy guys out there
« Reply #48 on: January 31, 2011, 02:07:53 PM »
I beleive it's set to polar.

It's funny, with the new scopes.  Just set it them up, punch in lat/long and dial up what you want to see.  If it's in the sky, the scope takes you there.   Wiz bang.  You don't have to know one single constellation anymore.

I miss the days before the automation, where the reward was just finding the deep sky objects with charts and lots of patience.  I did most of the Messier objects in high school, over the course of two years of peering and checking charts on cold, cold nights.  Then taking photos with actual.... film... GASP!  Hell, my first mount didn't even track.... had to move with fine adjustment constantly. 

My old school planetarium still has the bound notes and observations/pictures I did. 
"Ocean: A body of water occupying 2/3 of a world made for man...who has no gills."
-Ambrose Bierce

Offline Jack16

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 786
Re: To all the astronomy guys out there
« Reply #49 on: January 31, 2011, 08:09:30 PM »
Ok, for my next question. It's about my camera. What's with modifying the camera by taking out the IR Cut Filter? Is this necessary? And what will change about the way my camera works if I decide to take it out?

Offline CptTrips

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8269
Re: To all the astronomy guys out there
« Reply #50 on: January 31, 2011, 10:07:39 PM »
Here I twiddled with your raw image.  That at least didn't suffer from the compression.  There is a bit of noise in the data.  I may have streched it a bit far for some tastes.  I'll take a bit of noise if I see actual structure there too.




How long an exposure was that?

You did a good job on the focus.  

I use a program called "Images Plus" mainly for tweaking my images.  If you took several images of that one after another, you can average them with this software and reduced the noise.  That allows you to strech the data further without making the noise noticable.


Eventually you might want to experiment with "Darks" and "Flats".  These are calibration images you can use to remove various artifacts in your images.


Keep it up!


Clear Skies,
Wab

Toxic, psychotic, self-aggrandizing drama queens simply aren't worth me spending my time on.

Offline Jack16

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 786
Re: To all the astronomy guys out there
« Reply #51 on: February 01, 2011, 07:01:59 AM »
Looks great! :aok

Offline CptTrips

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8269
Re: To all the astronomy guys out there
« Reply #52 on: February 01, 2011, 11:27:24 AM »
Looks great! :aok

Crap its still hosed! ;)
It looks one way on my home laptop and totally different on my work machine.  Maybe I AM outa practice.  :lol


To your camera question:
I have a XSi and bought it with its filter pre-removed from a company who's name escapes me now.

I hear a guy that does good work post modifying cameras is Hap Griffin:

http://www.hapg.org/camera%20mods.htm

It does make a fair bit of difference in improving your sensetivity to the red spectrum where a lot of nebula will live.  Maybe not so much help on galaxies.

It will throw off your white balance.  I only use mine for astro so its not a problem, but might be if you intend dual use.  I believe however you can use a custom white balance setting and account for it just fine.  That entails taking a photo of a white evenly illuminated surface (posterboard?) in normal day light and through your camera settings telling to use that as white balance photo.  Now the camera now what white should look like and will comensate.

Have you tried webcam photography for solar, lunar, planets?

Wab




Toxic, psychotic, self-aggrandizing drama queens simply aren't worth me spending my time on.

Offline Babalonian

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5817
      • Pigs on the Wing
Re: To all the astronomy guys out there
« Reply #53 on: February 01, 2011, 01:45:29 PM »
UV filters are ideal for daylight outdoor photography, they prevent the camera from absorbing too much of the UV rays that are bouncing around out there from the sun and give you a more balanced photo with less glaring hot spots.  Since most shots taken outside durign the day, or inside under daylight conditions, are more plentiful in light than not (including flash photography), having a permanent (or opting not to remove a removable one) UV filter is usualy just fine.  This mild filtering though is not ideal for very sensitive camera work though where you're scraping to get as much exposure in your shots to capture every bit of the faintest amount of light, such as night time no-flash heavy-exposure photography including astronomy.  With astronomy photography you want to capture as much of the faint light as you can during your long exposures, including UV or anything else.
-Babalon
"Let's light 'em up and see how they smoke."
POTW IIw Oink! - http://www.PigsOnTheWing.org

Wow, you guys need help.

Offline Jack16

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 786
Re: To all the astronomy guys out there
« Reply #54 on: February 01, 2011, 09:19:37 PM »
I think I'll keep my camera the way it is. If I astrophotography becomes a serious hobby of mine, I might get another camera.

Wab, I did take a few other shots if you want to try to fiddle with and stack them.

How do I work the dark frames? I know I have to put the cover on the scope, but what do I do after that?

Offline CptTrips

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8269
Re: To all the astronomy guys out there
« Reply #55 on: February 02, 2011, 11:48:29 AM »
Wab, I did take a few other shots if you want to try to fiddle with and stack them.

Sure, just put them on your dropbox.  I'll give it a try.

How do I work the dark frames? I know I have to put the cover on the scope, but what do I do after that?

Darks provide a calibration to account for system artifacts like hot pixels and amp glow.  (You camera looks pretty clean but with longer exposures might start showing more.  My guess your biggest immediate bang for the buck would be from stacking.)

You don't even to have the camera attached.  Ambient temp is important.  Put the cap on your camera and take a series of images at the same ISO and duration as you "Light" or image frames are going to be.  If you expect a large temp drop during the session I'd take half the darks before and half after you image frames to average out the temp drop.  Ambient temp greatly effects the amount of noise in the image.

Just a rough example:

I'm planning to take 20 x 5min exposures of M42 at ISO800.  
So before my session I turn on the camera and let it warm up a little then take maybe 5 darks (cap on) at ISO800 at 5min.  
I then set up and take 20 x 5min @ ISO800 images of my target (light frames).
When I'm done I take off the camera, put the cap on, and take another 5 x 5min @ ISO800 dark frames.
(For the kind of image I do I usually don't need to mess with flat frames but you might want to get to that someday.)

Later, with software, I stack and average the 10 dark frames toget a master dark frame to use for calibration.
I then align, stack, and average the light frames to get a master light frame.
The software will then subtact the master dark frame from the master light frame to remove systemic noise.

You can find this stuff on the net.  However I can recommend "A Guide to Astrophotography with Digital SLR Cameras" by Jerry Lodriguss.  Its a great resource to get started with.


The idea behaind stacking the light frames is that the noise is distributed randomly in each frame.  The image should be consistent between each frame.  So averaging them together tends to reinforce the image and weaken the noise.  Noise will decrease to the inverse square Root of the number of frames.  stacking 4 images cuts the noise in half compared to a single image.

There is a trade off between taking a long exposure versus a shorter exposure.  A long exposure tends have worse tracking errors creep in.  Many bad things like a passing plane or bumping the scope might ruin the frame.  On some cameras you start to get amp glow.  On the other hand a shorter exposure has more noise and might not be long enough to separate data from the background noise. ON the other hand if you are taking 20 5min images and bump the scope you only ruin 1 sub-frame and still have 95 min good data.  If you were taking a single 100min exposure, you would be hosed.

However, digital cameras have a magical property.  Assuming the exposures are at least be long enough to separate the image data from the systemic and  background noise, then their combined exposure time is virtually equal to a single exposure of the total.  With my camera and skies, a 5min sub-frame exposure is ideal.  So 20 x 5min exposures is virtually equal to a single 100 min exposure without all the other problems.  Also, stacking allows you to use a much higher ISO setting that normal because the stack can overcome the increased noise due to the higher ISO settings.  Its worth the extra sensetivity.  I often use ISO1600 if I'm taking 20 or so sub-frames.


Regards,
Wab  

















« Last Edit: February 02, 2011, 11:53:34 AM by AKWabbit »
Toxic, psychotic, self-aggrandizing drama queens simply aren't worth me spending my time on.

Offline ink

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11274
Re: To all the astronomy guys out there
« Reply #56 on: February 02, 2011, 11:58:43 AM »
Wab-damn dood you know your stuff when it comes to camara's.....kudos......

Offline moot

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 16333
      • http://www.dasmuppets.com
Re: To all the astronomy guys out there
« Reply #57 on: February 02, 2011, 12:31:14 PM »
I often use ISO1600 if I'm taking 20 or so sub-frames.
Wow.  Gonna have to try that.
Hello ant
running very fast
I squish you

Offline CptTrips

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8269
Re: To all the astronomy guys out there
« Reply #58 on: February 02, 2011, 01:06:43 PM »
Wow.  Gonna have to try that.

Assuming of course that you are stacking enough sub-frames to increase signal-to-noise ratio sufficiently.

Wab
Toxic, psychotic, self-aggrandizing drama queens simply aren't worth me spending my time on.

Offline RichardDarkwood

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1925
Re: To all the astronomy guys out there
« Reply #59 on: February 02, 2011, 01:13:24 PM »
It's funny, with the new scopes.  Just set it them up, punch in lat/long and dial up what you want to see.  If it's in the sky, the scope takes you there.   Wiz bang.  You don't have to know one single constellation anymore.

I miss the days before the automation, where the reward was just finding the deep sky objects with charts and lots of patience.  I did most of the Messier objects in high school, over the course of two years of peering and checking charts on cold, cold nights.  Then taking photos with actual.... film... GASP!  Hell, my first mount didn't even track.... had to move with fine adjustment constantly. 

My old school planetarium still has the bound notes and observations/pictures I did. 

At my Astronomy club, to get on the key list(list of people with access to observatory) you have to be able to set up the scope, dial it in, then find a not so easy target and focus it in.
A yappy back seater like Jester wasn’t popular or fun to fly with, more of an unnecessary distraction than anything else---Puma44

https://www.twitch.tv/hounds_darkwood
CO--The Bad Guys