B-29

[Krusty]

Erm.. Ack-Ack? I thought they HAD to take full fuel, and DTs, meaning they never carried bombs with rockets because they needed the gas too badly.


EDIT: I'm all for historical loadout limitations, I just dont' get what you're saying.

[Stoney]

A quick search suggests the B-29 carries 9438 gallons of fuel. One gallon of gasoline weighs about 6lbs.  That would make a B-29 with 50% fuel 28,314lbs lighter than a B-29 with 100% fuel.

That will have a very noticeable effect on climb rate.

Hey Karnak, are you sure of this number?  With that many gallons, I get 56628 lbs of fuel.  If we add the empty weight (~75,000lbs), plus 20,000 lbs of bombs, we get 151628 which would put it way over its listed max takeoff weight.  Total fuel load with 20,000 lbs of bombs should be around 38,000 lbs max if the crew weight is considered (~2200 lbs @ 11 men/200lbs per) and not counting defensive armament (if that was not computed as part of empty weight).  Of course, that means a 19,000 lb reduction which is still significant, but I think we're in the realm of considering how much fuel would be considered a "combat" load versus a ferry load.

[Edit] That's the correct number...Obviously there were situations when they didn't carry "full" fuel.

[Edit #2] Same articles says 5,000 lb bomb load for 1600 nm radius mission.

[Stoney]

So, are you trying to say for example the P-38s that took part in the air support of Okinawa and other places like the Philippines took off with both 100% fuel, drop tanks, bombs and rockets?  Hardly.  Even the Iwo P-51s that flew missions to the Japanese main islands never took 100% fuel and 100% ordnance. 

ack-ack

I'm sorry, perhaps I misunderstood your post I quoted.  It sounded like you wanted all fighters that could carry ordnance to carry 100% fuel in-game.  My point was that historically, there's a chance that on those short-hop air support sorties they carried less that 100% internal fuel, so why should we force 100% in-game? 

Iwo P-51's going to mainland Japan would be all fuel.  I do know that P-47Ns conducting interdiction missions to mainland Japan from Ie Shima would sometimes load (1) 500lb on the centerline, (10) rockets, and two 150 gallon drops on the wings, but that's the N Jug.  I don't know that the Pony could make it there and back with ordnance of any kind.

[Stoney]

It is not comparable to fighters in the least.

While a somewhat superficially similar event happens with fighters, you're not reducing the flying weight by HALF the plane by taking less fuel. You don't gain 2x or 3x the climb rate as compared to historical performance numbers just by taking less fuel.

If the B-29 has a max takeoff of 125,000 lbs, dropping 20,000 lbs of fuel (less than 1/3rd of its empty weight) doesn't give the plane the same weight reduction you generalized above. 

Fighters were compact, small, light (even the heavy ones are feathers compared to 4-engine bombers) and the end result of flying with 100% vs 50% only comes into play at stall speeds. You wouldn't affect a fighter's top level speed, for example, by more than 1-2 mph.

Test a clean P-47N with full internal fuel at 34,000 feet, then compare it again with 25% fuel and you'll get more than a 1-2 mph difference in top speed.  We went through this before about the effects of induced drag at altitude and how it applied to bombers in a previous discussion maybe two years ago.

P.S. No I meant WEP. I believe the power setting currently used as "full throttle" was a 5-minute limited power setting. A squaddie of mine posted about it a while back posting actual power settings used.

We don't have the 5-minute War Emergency setting available in-game.  We have the 5-minute Military Power setting available all the time.  Its been a while since I've flown a B-17 in game, but I believe we are limited to 46"/2500 RPM.  If my research is correct, there was a WEP setting of 55"/2750 RPM.  Someone should page Baumer I guess, since he has stick time...

[colmbo]

I don't know that the Pony could make it there and back with ordnance of any kind.

I've seen gun camera of Mustangs using rockets over Japan.  Here's a pic of a Mustang with rockets and drop tanks on Iwo:

[colmbo]

If my research is correct, there was a WEP setting of 55"/2750 RPM. 

I don't believe there was a WEP power setting on the B-17.  When I flew the 909 for the Collings Foundation we never used more than 44 inches (and that only rarely).  We were limited by no longer having 100/130 octane fuel -- but even so I just don't remember ever seeing a power setting over 44 inches.

Of course if I thought I was going to die I'd push the throttles up until I wasn't scared anymore. <G>

[Krusty]

If it's a 5-minute limited power setting, that's basically a WEP (i.e. emergency power).

[Krusty]

Test a clean P-47N with full internal fuel at 34,000 feet, then compare it again with 25% fuel

You take the worst example of the highest alt and the heaviest fighter with the most internal gas.

Try a P-51D at 25k. Try a 109 at 20k. I don't deny there will be climb increase with less weight, however the weight you're reducing is a fraction of the gains that heavy bombers get.

It would be like flying a spit at 25% fuel and WEP the entire sortie without ever fearing running out of gas for hours. That's how our current bombers compare to historic ones.


I've put forth a more radical idea in the past: Give bombers their own fuel burn. Then crank it up to 8x burn rate. They will need to take full fuel to get anywhere, and cruise to and from target just like real bombers, even though their targets are only 100 miles away (they even took 100% internal for short hops across the channel to bomb targets in France and back)

[Stoney]

I've seen gun camera of Mustangs using rockets over Japan.  Here's a pic of a Mustang with rockets and drop tanks on Iwo:

(Image removed from quote.)

I wasn't sure if the extra drag would limit them, but obviously not.  Thanks for the pic Colombo.

[Stoney]

If it's a 5-minute limited power setting, that's basically a WEP (i.e. emergency power).

Almost every U.S. fighter in the game shares the same 5 minute limit to its military power setting, then adds an additional 5 minute limit to a WEP setting that is higher than military power.  Just saying...

[Stoney]

You take the worst example of the highest alt and the heaviest fighter with the most internal gas.

I did that on purpose because you have a tendency to over-generalize when you post.  Your statement was that "You wouldn't affect a fighter's top level speed, for example, by more than 1-2 mph."  Better to use specific examples with tested speed deltas to make your argument.  Given your statement, my P-47N example was spot on.  That being said, you can't say "you're not reducing the flying weight by HALF the plane by taking less fuel." because we don't have an aircraft in game that can carry its empty weight in fuel do we?  And, further, the P-47N can almost double its military power rate of climb by reducing its fuel load. I know what you're getting at, just trying to force you to tailor it down to specifics.  Like I said in my first response to Karnak, the B-29 will see an enormous performance improvement by taking 50% fuel, just try and temper your argument a bit so people like me can't come in a cherry-pick it.

It would be like flying a spit at 25% fuel and WEP the entire sortie without ever fearing running out of gas for hours. That's how our current bombers compare to historic ones.

 

Again, I would suggest you change this to "flying a spit at 25% fuel and Military Power the entire sortie...

I've put forth a more radical idea in the past: Give bombers their own fuel burn. Then crank it up to 8x burn rate. They will need to take full fuel to get anywhere, and cruise to and from target just like real bombers, even though their targets are only 100 miles away (they even took 100% internal for short hops across the channel to bomb targets in France and back)

First, source for the part I italicized--and I'm asking a question, not calling you out.  We know that bomb loads could vary based on range to target in some instances.  According to Joe Baugher, the B-29s operating out of China early on couldn't carry the same bomb loads as those based in the Marianas due to needing bomb-bay mounted fuel tanks.   

This could be added as an additional arena setting, splitting the bombers into one fuel burn and the attack/fighters into another.  The only problem is that since they're burning fuel 4 times faster than everyone else, by the time they're over the target (when it matters for interception purposes), and more specifically as they run away home, their weight would be reduced down, due to fuel burn, to levels probably approaching the 25-50% you're objecting to.

Perhaps we should ask HTC why bombers have the option of taking 25, 50, and 75% fuel and then see what the answer is...

[Karnak]

Stoney,

No, I am not sure.  It was just the result of a quick and dirty internet search while at work.  It was a lot more than my guestimate had been, that is why I rewrote that post.

As I recall, RAF fighters at AH MIL setting are on either their 30 minute or unlimited setting per their pilot's handbooks.  I can check on the Mosquito VI later.

[Ack-Ack]

Erm.. Ack-Ack? I thought they HAD to take full fuel, and DTs, meaning they never carried bombs with rockets because they needed the gas too badly.


EDIT: I'm all for historical loadout limitations, I just dont' get what you're saying.

Historical loadout limitations.  Sorry for the confusion.


ack-ack

[Wmaker]

If it's a 5-minute limited power setting, that's basically a WEP (i.e. emergency power).

Every US-built fighter that I have checked that doesn't have WEP in AH has a time limit on their take-off power setting (maximum power setting). Aces High's "WEP" is obviously somewhat generic but, IMO, Pyro has used a consistent logic on most planes that if manufacturer/country of a certain plane calls the max. output take off setting it doesn't have a time limit in AH even if it had one in real life. For take-off setting, the time limit was largely 5min of US combat aircraft.

So if what you're saying would be true in the context of AH, basically every plane in the game would have some kind of time limit ie. "AH-WEP" on their maximum power setting.

[XPSteve]

Umm...so when are we getting the B-29?