ar234 question

[lyric1]

I'll be happy to look at the book. I have no interest in buying it.
I quoted and read the part available on google. It was enough.
Then you said it wasn't reliable because it proved you wrong.
Didn't you notice it was the same book?  

Now that you've moved on to personal insults you've basically conceded the argument.
We're done.

Yes I did notice it was the same book & the same authors. They did a 180 degree turn around from that google link & then did an updated version of the same book.

I guess I did not explain myself clearly enough that is on me then.

Personal insult removed & an apology is owed to you by me.

Google link of the old book.

http://books.google.com/books?id=bb1ywW6WjIkC&pg=PA30&lpg=PA30&dq=bza+bomb+sight&source=bl&ots=tyW0wtL85q&sig=oY0j9Rb79tb5wpk5TF_ZbRBm8Jg&hl=en&ei=x0L9TfGcH4LY0QHuneXQAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=bza%20bomb%20sight&f=false

Link to the new version of the same book.

http://www.amazon.com/Monogram-Monarch-Arado-234-Blitz/dp/0914144510

A large number of posts in this thread are from the later book.

Like this post from the later.



Why did they change so much from one version to the next?

They found new information that contradict their earlier edition.

[Denniss]

The drawing is Brown's book is full of errors:
Designation mention as Ar 234B-2/lr - lr are Rüstsatz designations and not part of the model number (l = LOTFE = bomb aiming device, r = two 300l drop tanks).
20mm guns - neither the 6/44 nor the 12/44 manual have those as standard fitting nor even list them as optional Rüstsatz.

According to several books the rear guns were to be factory-installed in the C-series. They were originally planned for the B-series as an external under-fuselage pod but dropped in autumn 1944 because they preferred to load bombs up to 1000kg there. The fuselage-mounted MG 151/20 were then planned as option but obviously never used. With ammo they weighted more than 200kg and would cause CoG issues to be offset with balance weight in front. Sounds like one of the reasons for the forward fuselage extension of the C-series which was to have this installation as standard.

[lyric1]

A page from a book published by the Smithsonian institute in 2010 with a brief overview based off of their research on the AR-234B.


 

[MiloMorai]

lyric, that recon flight reminded me of a post on another board.

"This area looked like one big airfield. It was unbelievable how many aircraft they had amassed there."
But having faced no aerial opposition, Sommer continued to fly over London, where he continued to take photographs. He would face potential court-martial for this addition to the mission. His 'unofficial' photos showed that Germany's V-weapons had not had the impact that Nazi officials were informing Hitler.

Sommer met the mosquito on his return journey. I don't have a location, but probably over the channel. The pilots courteously waved at each-other and continued their flights.

[FLS]

A page from a book published by the Smithsonian institute in 2010 with a brief overview based off of their research on the AR-234B.

It's not clear if they're referring to guns on all the Arado's or just this particular one. It does suggest the possibility that NASM might respond to a request for information. Curiously the current web page description of the aircraft says nothing at all about gun mountings. Maybe after they printed the book they received new information.   

http://airandspace.si.edu/collections/artifact.cfm?id=A19600312000

[lyric1]

It's not clear if they're referring to guns on all the Arado's or just this particular one. It does suggest the possibility that NASM might respond to a request for information. Curiously the current web page description of the aircraft says nothing at all about gun mountings. Maybe after they printed the book they received new information.   

http://airandspace.si.edu/collections/artifact.cfm?id=A19600312000

Why don't you contact them as I have before on this very matter. 

http://airandspace.si.edu/research/arch/emailform.cfm

[FLS]

Why don't you contact them as I have before on this very matter. 

http://airandspace.si.edu/research/arch/emailform.cfm

Fair enough.

Did you note the 20 aircraft built after 12/44 mentioned in the web text? That sounds a lot like "late production models".

The drawing is Brown's book is full of errors:
Designation mention as Ar 234B-2/lr - lr are Rüstsatz designations and not part of the model number (l = LOTFE = bomb aiming device, r = two 300l drop tanks).
20mm guns - neither the 6/44 nor the 12/44 manual have those as standard fitting nor even list them as optional Rüstsatz.

According to several books the rear guns were to be factory-installed in the C-series. They were originally planned for the B-series as an external under-fuselage pod but dropped in autumn 1944 because they preferred to load bombs up to 1000kg there. The fuselage-mounted MG 151/20 were then planned as option but obviously never used. With ammo they weighted more than 200kg and would cause CoG issues to be offset with balance weight in front. Sounds like one of the reasons for the forward fuselage extension of the C-series which was to have this installation as standard.

Doesn't the drawing in Brown's book show the drop tanks and bomb sight? Wouldn't that make the designation correct? 

If the guns were only fitted on the aircraft made after 12/44 they wouldn't be mentioned in the earlier manuals.  The bomb sight had a separate manual, maybe the periscope and guns had a separate manual too.

The C/G question makes me wonder how much the 2 cameras weighed.

[lyric1]

Fair enough.

Did you note the 20 aircraft built after 12/44 mentioned in the web text? That sounds a lot like "late production models".

If you would type out your question to them here in this thread as it will not show up in the reply from the Smithsonian.

Just so there is no confusion.

[FLS]

I'll just say I was right and you were wrong. That should be clear enough. 

[lyric1]

Doesn't the drawing in Brown's book show the drop tanks and bomb sight? Wouldn't that make the designation correct? 

If the guns were only fitted on the aircraft made after 12/44 they wouldn't be mentioned in the earlier manuals.  The bomb sight had a separate manual, maybe the periscope and guns had a separate manual too.

The C/G question makes me wonder how much the 2 cameras weighed.

Those answers I seem to recall can be found here on the CD's for Arado.

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.luftfahrt-archiv-hafner.de%2F

[FLS]

The drawings you posted show the RB30 series cameras which weigh 160 lbs each with film so two of them is close enough to the cannon and ammo weight.

[Chalenge]

Don't know if this has been referred to elsewhere in the thread, but FWIW Eric Brown's "Wings of the Luftwaffe" has this cutaway:

I have a few of Browns books or books about his cutaways. It declares right at the beginning that the drawings are not based on detailed facts but on assumption and conjecture.

[lyric1]

I'll just say I was right and you were wrong. That should be clear enough. 

You misunderstand why I put the  face on the prior post.

For example I asked them if they could power up the periscope some how on their AR-234 so they could take pictures through it so I can have exactly what the view would be like.

They sent me this.







So I was left wondering what question did I ask these guys then?


I kind of took it as a no on powering up the periscope.

Take a note of your actual question because the reply may leave you as to what you asked in the first place.

[FLS]

I got that. I was making a joke.

The archivists cannot play with the aircraft, they can only look up and copy documents and pictures.

[lyric1]

Nice info Lyric. According to Jeff Ethel and Alfred Price's book German Jets in Combat none of the reconnaissance a/c and most of the bombers did not have the rear cannon mounted. Some later production models, which is what we have in AH, did have the 20mm cannon and they were mounted to fire out 12 degrees in line with the flight path which when you think about it is the most sensible vertical angle for a fixed gun. They appear to be mounted down because the fuselage is angled up at that point. The night fighters were ad hoc but not considered experimental they just didn't build many, the firepower was considered too weak to make it feasible. The high alt level bombing was the most interesting bombing technique due to the bomb sight controlled auto pilot but the shallow dive bomb run was used most often.

Just got done reading Ethell & Price's book.

The only text in this book in regards to rear guns is the 3D cutaway drawing on pages 88 & 89 that is already shown in this thread & the paragraph you quote from on page 91 that is shown below.
Only a few of the listed pilots mentioned in the preface flew the bomber version & no where in this book is there any mention of any AR-234 pilot referring to rear guns at all.

You also misunderstood the paragraph with the 12 degree firing pattern of rear guns.

They are talking about cameras not guns.



Reading the Preface it was interesting to see a couple of names who helped on this book.



That's right the very same two guys who wrote this book back in the day & were writing in lockstep with all the other early books on the AR-234. As can be seen on the image below.

http://books.google.com/books?id=bb1ywW6WjIkC&pg=PA30&lpg=PA30&dq=bza+bomb+sight&source=bl&ots=tyW0wtL85q&sig=oY0j9Rb79tb5wpk5TF_ZbRBm8Jg&hl=en&ei=x0L9TfGcH4LY0QHuneXQAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=bza%20bomb%20sight&f=false



Then later they had a complete change of heart on the same titled book.
Where they repeatedly state no rear guns on any B model as shown from one of those pages below.

http://www.amazon.com/Monogram-Monarch-Arado-234-Blitz/dp/0914144510








It seems as I stated before Richard Smith & Eddie Creek found out later that their early book was wrong & they completely changed their minds.

These guys I think have the smoking gun & my next task will be to find them & ask what it is.