Author Topic: ar234 question  (Read 50705 times)

Offline Krusty

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Re: ar234 question
« Reply #45 on: February 11, 2011, 11:38:57 PM »
Good catch.


Regardless, I think you're just re-proving your own point.


I think you've given more than enough info to suggest none had the guns, so what's the question, now?

Offline lyric1

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Re: ar234 question
« Reply #46 on: February 11, 2011, 11:40:56 PM »
Good catch.


Regardless, I think you're just re-proving your own point.


I think you've given more than enough info to suggest none had the guns, so what's the question, now?
Aaahh?? :headscratch:. Making sure I guess? I am still not done though :D

Offline Krusty

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Re: ar234 question
« Reply #47 on: February 11, 2011, 11:44:36 PM »
Fair 'nuff... Rather than look for those without, might I suggest looking for those WITH?  :x

It'll be the shorter search, apparently



 :bolt:

Offline lyric1

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Re: ar234 question
« Reply #48 on: February 11, 2011, 11:58:02 PM »
Fair 'nuff... Rather than look for those without, might I suggest looking for those WITH?  :x

It'll be the shorter search, apparently



 :bolt:
Yes & in process. :D

Offline lyric1

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Re: ar234 question
« Reply #49 on: February 12, 2011, 02:33:57 AM »
I'm interested in trying to trace this now from a different direction.  Other than the one assembley in the photos that we know existed (and likely for the prototypes), are there any documents to verify the rear gun assemblies were ever produced or available on a scale viable for more than just the prototypes?
I think I can answer that.

First off in light of all that I have dug up of late I wanted to find drawings,photos,documents showing the B model with rear mounted guns. Not as easy as I thought. Most every book I have has a lot of info on the prototypes & the C model & they kind of skip around actual combat B models in particular the bomber version.

From the drawings I have found they clearly wanted to mount rear guns.



Also in these next two the drawings look to be identical to the detailed drawing of the C model gun assembly that I posted before.









So finding drawings done it was time to find documentation or photos. Here is a small bit off info from one book.



OK V9 was the first B model built a prototype. Now for pictures of this plane & there is a lot of them I will just post a few.



Now the one thing that stands out on the V9 is that there is no periscope & no holes for rearward guns. Yet the document says it was sent to have them installed. Is the book wrong? You must have the periscope to shoot with right & to be used for dive bombing? In no pictures can I find a periscope or rear guns on the V9 & as I said there is a bunch of pictures of this plane. So the book is wrong in regards to what was loaded on V9.

Now take note of the shaded part on the top of the next page.



Interesting no mention of a periscope or rear guns to be added with these optional extras in this pack of four options & no where in this particular book is it mentioned that an option pack existed for the rear guns for the B model. The periscope was added for the V10 though the next prototype.

So what next? Lets try & find a photo of an actual B model with the tell tale slots & holes for the rear guns.

TAH-DAH,BINGO,EUREKA. :rock  :x  :banana:



At last pay dirt right.:aok  :headscratch: Wrong.:(

V19 was the first prototype C model as can been seen by the next picture.



So what is up with this I can't find a picture any place that shows a B model with actual guns.

Now we get to this documentation.

(Cant fit this all on my scanner it's in two parts first left page second right).





So it looks as if only the C model was fitted with rear guns only not the B at all not even the prototypes.



So that's it I am done on rear facing guns on AR-234'S I say no B models had them not even the prototypes. I can't find any info that says they did & can confirm it based off the eight books I currently have. Is there info that says's there is ? Maybe I would love to see it & if any one can prove my theory wrong please do I have no problem being wrong.

So as far as AHII is concerned we have an aircraft with rear facing guns that should not be FACING that way. As a foot note we have rear facing guns that shoot back & up. All evidence on hand says they should shoot back & down & should only be on the C model that never was used in combat & we don't have in AHII.

So is that it am I done is there any more to add?

Well yes this is where the AR-234-B takes an interesting twist.

Two books I bought had a strange bit of info that I could not quite figure out at first.

This one comment was printed in a book that was done in the 60's some time.



OK so guns facing back in a pod mounted under plane. Based off the age of the book at the time with what knowledge they had & there is blue prints with such mountings I guess I can see how they arrived at that idea.

Later books show that no such rear facing pods were ever made. So so much for that book.

Then I found this bit in a book done in 2000.



Surely this can't be right? Well yes it is there was some night fighters done that fit this description. Three were made & they did do operational sorties with no luck though. Now per AHII they meet the requirements. :aok







Not done yet though.




This aircraft flew day missions as well with the forward gun.



So that is it as I said I may be wrong on all of this I look forward to someone showing me otherwise.

Question is what should be done about our AHII ar-234? I say nothing for now. When an update is due & if my info/theory is correct. I would say get the periscope to work as in real life & let the aircraft shallow dive bomb as they really did. Because with the on board computer sight it was accurate from what I have read.

Since no rear guns existed under my theory & not to disappoint the guys who really like dog fighting with them. I say get the forward gun pod option included. It did see combat at least in four instances (maybe more) & that is four more than we have with rear guns in AHII now.




























 
« Last Edit: February 12, 2011, 03:27:02 AM by lyric1 »

Offline Chalenge

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Re: ar234 question
« Reply #50 on: February 12, 2011, 02:46:36 PM »
Bravo Lyric!  :rock
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Offline lyric1

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Re: ar234 question
« Reply #51 on: February 13, 2011, 06:35:09 PM »
Bravo Lyric!  :rock
Thank you and a little more info on the T9 EH aircraft that I missed.



Offline lyric1

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Re: ar234 question
« Reply #52 on: February 16, 2011, 04:12:23 PM »
Just making sure I got this horse down.  :aok

From another source I now have.



Offline mthrockmor

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Re: ar234 question
« Reply #53 on: February 16, 2011, 04:20:47 PM »
Now I feel like a noob all over again. Does the AR-234 have a periscope? Just curious. I have also heard that the F6F-5 has a periscope. Is this true, or should I hit -alt- f4 and get my answer. Sheesh!

Boo
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Offline lyric1

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Re: ar234 question
« Reply #54 on: February 16, 2011, 04:24:47 PM »
Now I feel like a noob all over again. Does the AR-234 have a periscope? Just curious. I have also heard that the F6F-5 has a periscope. Is this true, or should I hit -alt- f4 and get my answer. Sheesh!

Boo
Yes to periscope for looking backwards & using for dive bombing with the computer.

Offline mthrockmor

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Re: ar234 question
« Reply #55 on: February 16, 2011, 09:39:13 PM »
So how do you use the periscope? Is that also a yes for the F6F Hellcat?

Boo
No poor dumb bastard wins a war by dying for his country, he wins by making the other poor, dumb, bastard die for his.
George "Blood n Guts" Patton

Offline Krusty

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Re: ar234 question
« Reply #56 on: February 16, 2011, 11:02:27 PM »
I say pull the tail guns. But I also say do NOT add a frivolous "experimental" gunpod that was only used 4 times the entire war. Hell the Mk103 gunpods on the Fw190 were used more than that, and they never got clearance for general use!

Offline lyric1

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Re: ar234 question
« Reply #57 on: February 17, 2011, 06:10:57 AM »
So how do you use the periscope? Is that also a yes for the F6F Hellcat?

Boo
No idea on f6f. I think how to use scope is listed back in the thread on user manual.

Offline Babalonian

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Re: ar234 question
« Reply #58 on: February 17, 2011, 01:56:57 PM »
After looking around some more this is what I have come up with on the F1+MT/140173 the first captured AR234..


(Image removed from quote.)

The question I ask is what were the provisions for the guns?

Are they the holes in the rear of the aircraft for the cannons & shell ejection system?

Like the C3 model shown here?

(Image removed from quote.)

Based off these photos I would say no.

(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)

The British did detail drawings of a couple of aircraft one being the aircraft in question. Also based off the photo recon drawing clearly these aircraft could not fit in the rear any gun system. I could not fit this on my scanner so it is in two parts.

(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)

So what are the provisions for guns? Clearly nothing external as far as gun related portals at the rear of the plane. Maybe the periscope?

Or maybe the gun mounting fixture like in this photo as previously posted in this thread of the C3 model?

(Image removed from quote.)

What ever was there was clearly internal & it did not seem to warrant any detail of it as they did not show it on the blue print.











Very curious, and I'd be surprised if I'm the first to notice this, but for suposedly being the first Ar234 captured and examined by the allies those detailed drawings have on them quite a bit of equipment listed on them that was in no-way possibley present/loaded/equiped on the captured Ar234 (but similar to the rearward firing guns, obvious provisions for them were found).  In particular, and as evidenced by the recovery photos, the detailed drawings have in detail on them (but missing on the recovered 234) the 500-liter drop tanks (ok, so this was probabley common German GI), every single bomb it was capable of carrying, and (in quite detail) the RATOs...

I think it's a compilation of the detailed analysis of the captured aircraft and captured/leaked production/design documents they may of already had or just recieved, which could explain much of this rear-gun-provisioned-but-lacking confusion.
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: ar234 question
« Reply #59 on: February 17, 2011, 03:46:46 PM »
I think its much more likely that the artists that did the 3D sketches of these planes after the war included the guns and therefore began the confusion.
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