Underseas cables for Nilsen!

[Angus]

It is actually something you (Nilsen) could perhaps help analyze, and an interesting bit of info for the community.
The Norwegians, with their ample power sources compared to the EU are now "pumping" electricity to the Netherlands and soon Germany through underseas cables named NorGer and NorNed.
This is no small distance, both almost 600 km long, and serious amount of power, - the small and old one can do up to 600 mW, which is much more than a hairdryer
I am interested in the bits like power loss on the distance, and the prices involved. I know energy prices in Europe are quite high, and both parts (Norway-EU) have heavy industries. So, the cable seems to give a better revenue than simply plonking down the heavy industry as close to the source as possible. (Which also means that the industrial product needs transport instead).
I hope someone has thoughts on this, and some bits of info like powerloss in % pro distance, as well as grid prices in both places. Having a hard time finding this properly on the internet. And as a comparison, U.S. prices would be quite welcome

[Nilsen]

I have no idea about the powerloss over these distances but its not that much. The power you lose over the lines does not matter that much actually. The fact that you get a bigger market for it makes it easyer for those who make the power to always have a customer for it. The bigger the market the more efficent it is because the need for power is more stable and there is less need to start and stop production. Before Norway got on the grid with europe via those cables production went up and down like mad depending on local temperatures and industrial production. The powercuts and problems was more frequent too. With the really cold weather we have had this winter my region would have had alot higher prices for power if it was not for the cables to denmark.

As it is now with the cables we sell power in the summer to the south of europe when they need it for aircondition (before the cables the production almost stopped for 6 months of the year) and we import power in the winter when we use it for heating and have less or no power outages than before the cables.

[Angus]

Do you have any figures for the sale prices pr KW. Just what the Norwegian grid normally has for instance.
Here, we are selling at roughly 20/1000, i.e. 2% of the world market price of aluminium pr kW, which is exactly why I am hot for the cable idea, - Iceland - UK. It is slightly further than NorGer, but not that much, and as far as I can see, the European prices are much better.
But Nilsen, - thank you, and excuse me for asking for more
You will answer and get payed back one day in "Hakarl" and "Brennivin", hehe.

[Nilsen]

lol ty  

Prices are harder to find. They vary not only by season, temperature in norway and/or the rest of europe but also in different parts of norway. Our glorious nation of norwegistan is devided into five sectors with different prices in each.

You can see the sectors here: http://www.statnett.no/no/Kraftsystemet/Produksjon-og-forbruk/Kraftsituasjonen/

You also have the website in english here: http://www.statnett.no/en/ and on the right side of that page you can see the power going in and out of each sector

Dig around there and you may find everything you are looking for

[2bighorn]

It is actually something you (Nilsen) could perhaps help analyze, and an interesting bit of info for the community.
The Norwegians, with their ample power sources compared to the EU are now "pumping" electricity to the Netherlands and soon Germany through underseas cables named NorGer and NorNed.
This is no small distance, both almost 600 km long, and serious amount of power, - the small and old one can do up to 600 mW, which is much more than a hairdryer
I am interested in the bits like power loss on the distance, and the prices involved. I know energy prices in Europe are quite high, and both parts (Norway-EU) have heavy industries. So, the cable seems to give a better revenue than simply plonking down the heavy industry as close to the source as possible. (Which also means that the industrial product needs transport instead).
I hope someone has thoughts on this, and some bits of info like powerloss in % pro distance, as well as grid prices in both places. Having a hard time finding this properly on the internet. And as a comparison, U.S. prices would be quite welcome

According to Siemens, power loss is less than 3% per 1,000 Km

http://www.energy.siemens.com/hq/en/power-transmission/hvdc/hvdc-ultra/

[Angus]

WOW!
Thank you so much. I will do some calculations and post more.
As a secondnote, - this is what I love so much about the AH BB. So many different people, and many brilliant minds

[Babalonian]

lol ty 

Prices are harder to find. They vary not only by season, temperature in norway and/or the rest of europe but also in different parts of norway. Our glorious nation of norwegistan is devided into five sectors with different prices in each.

You can see the sectors here: http://www.statnett.no/no/Kraftsystemet/Produksjon-og-forbruk/Kraftsituasjonen/

You also have the website in english here: http://www.statnett.no/en/ and on the right side of that page you can see the power going in and out of each sector

Dig around there and you may find everything you are looking for

I think that site is so cool and informative.  Nothing like the sites for the utility companies here in the states, just try to find one that does more than pitch sales, codles investors or fast-track your billing payments to them.

[Nilsen]

I think that site is so cool and informative.  Nothing like the sites for the utility companies here in the states, just try to find one that does more than pitch sales, codles investors or fast-track your billing payments to them.

Might be because Statnet isnt actually trying to sell anything. They are like the stock exchange and are only responsible for the main powergrid infrastructure and get a percentage of every kw sold to consumers to keep it up to speed and maintained. Unlike those who actually try to get you to buy their power.

[Babalonian]

Might be because Statnet isnt actually trying to sell anything. They are like the stock exchange and are only responsible for the main powergrid infrastructure and get a percentage of every kw sold to consumers to keep it up to speed and maintained. Unlike those who actually try to get you to buy their power.

Yeah, but our power distribution and grids are privately owned and maintained by these companies, even though they're interlocked and networked across the entire country to make one solid grid.  It's inefecient in my opinion and it is more evident in the communications industry (both land-based and mobile) since the same buisness model is applied to our telecomunications grid and buisnesses.  I think the buisness model originates from the railroad and telegraph days here in the states (the companies would buy a stretch of land, build the railroad (and later the telegraph lines that paralleled the tracks), charge passengers and freight that used their services, and then be responcible for maintaining their respective sections with their respective profits), where it kinda made more sence than it does now almost 200 years later.  Nowadays there is a bit more than a couple railroad tracks (or telegraph lines) running across this country to keep it inter-connected and comunicating.  We can have 5-6 cell towers jammed together within a square block because each company insists on having their own equipment on their own tower rather than working together to make a much more effecient, apealing and better shared tower/site.  Rather than join together to make a single and powerful fiberoptic backbone for our nations communications, they each opt to maintain and gradualy upgrade their own grids and systems independent of each other.

[mipoikel]

You can find market prices here: http://www.nordpoolspot.com/

Myself, In august, I made a 1 year contract with Kraft & Kultur and price is 5,5cnt/kwh + Transfer payment for local company.  Last winter I had a spot priced contract and  January-february were reaallly cold and prices went way too high. (I had to pay about 300 eur/ month)  

[Nilsen]

Yeah, but our power distribution and grids are privately owned and maintained by these companies, even though they're interlocked and networked across the entire country to make one solid grid.  It's inefecient in my opinion and it is more evident in the communications industry (both land-based and mobile) since the same buisness model is applied to our telecomunications grid and buisnesses.  I think the buisness model originates from the railroad and telegraph days here in the states (the companies would buy a stretch of land, build the railroad (and later the telegraph lines that paralleled the tracks), charge passengers and freight that used their services, and then be responcible for maintaining their respective sections with their respective profits), where it kinda made more sence than it does now almost 200 years later.  Nowadays there is a bit more than a couple railroad tracks (or telegraph lines) running across this country to keep it inter-connected and comunicating.  We can have 5-6 cell towers jammed together within a square block because each company insists on having their own equipment on their own tower rather than working together to make a much more effecient, apealing and better shared tower/site.  Rather than join together to make a single and powerful fiberoptic backbone for our nations communications, they each opt to maintain and gradualy upgrade their own grids and systems independent of each other.

You have a point.

IMO all vital infrastructure like water, power, rail, road and land lines should be owned by the government either directly or through a business with the government as the major shareholder. In the case of things like cellphone towers the industry should go together in some sort of forum where they can meet and discuss working togheter. I see way too often that one company digs up the street to lay fiber only to see the town dig it up again 2 weeks later to upgrade watermains or some such thing. Its understandable when a system has a fault that needs to be fixed but when you know thay have planned it for years or months and still cant do it in one go i get frustrated

[Angus]

Agree on that Nilsen.
Mipoikel, were the 5.5 cnt a raw price from the grid? Big sale? And how high are the distribution costs?

[mipoikel]

Agree on that Nilsen.
Mipoikel, were the 5.5 cnt a raw price from the grid? Big sale? And how high are the distribution costs?

Yep, I need approx 25000 kwh / year(mostly heating + sauna), transfer costs are aprox 2-3 cnt/ kwh, I should check this from bill... but it is about 70 euros/month. So total price is somewhere between 8-9 cnt/kwh.

btw, Price is going up fast now and I wouldnt get same price if I'd do contract today, Lowest price seems to be about 6cnt/kwh. We have several web services where we can compare prices from different companies.

For example:

[Nilsen]

That is a good price mip compared to what i have payed this winter.

[mipoikel]

That is a good price mip compared to what i have payed this winter.

heh,if im right, Kraft&kultur is norweigian company, so they sell cheap for us and you pay their profit.