Author Topic: Hangtime regarding this defensive spiral....  (Read 848 times)

Offline Duckwing6

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Hangtime regarding this defensive spiral....
« on: February 16, 2000, 04:22:00 AM »
Hyas Hangtime .. do you have a film of our engagement??i forgot to switch the recorder....

I was thinking about it the whole evening and couldn't find out how i even got into that spiral LOL

Ok folks here's some tactical question...
You are locked in a diving spiral with a plane thet can catch you if you try to run .. you are at 180° aspect (right on the other side of the turn) and you gain nothing .. your opponent is insignificantly lower than you are and you are at stall speed, not gaining any angle on him... what would you do ?
 

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Offline Vermillion

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Hangtime regarding this defensive spiral....
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2000, 07:08:00 AM »
If I remember Duck you were in a F4U and he was in a P-51, Correct? (from our discussions on country channel)

Now it really depends on what altitude you are at, how much horizontal seperation, and are you both exactly at 180 degree's off and at stall speed,  but I would say you have two basic options. The Gutsy and the Safe.

1.) Gutsy: In this case your figuring you can't get to any help in time, so its mano y mano. If you have plenty of altitude under you, I would immediately drop the nose into a low yo yo to pick up speed, and then take the fight into the vertical. It doesn't have to be a pure vertical fight like a 109, but definitely start using hi and low yo yo's to get around the circle. Bad points, are that the Pony has better acceleration and wing loading on you.  Good points is that you have fearsome firepower (assuming your in a -1C)and a much tougher aircraft. At this point your trying for that deciding split second snapshot.  Like I said this is risky, and it will come down to who is the better pilot and gunner.

2.) Safe: Now if you are truely 180 degree off and at stall speed, you actually have alot of room to play with here. Especially if you have a little altitude, and are within a sector of friendly help. Now think of it this way, yes the Pony is faster than the Hog in a flat out chase at level attitude. But the Hog can dive with the Pony, ie about same speed in a dive. So you should continue the turn until you are pointed towards friendly airspace, go wings level, unload into a zero G dive, and run home to mama. Now realize I don't mean point your nose to the deck and dump all your alt at once, you want to stretch it out as long as you can. As soon as you go wings level, realize that the Pony still has to turn another 180 degree's at stall speed, which will take a while and give you a substantial head start. Now realize that if he isnt truely 180 off (say 100 off), he will probably get thru the turn, out accelerate you and probably catch you. But if its truely even and you stretch out your dive speed correctly, you will be able to run an awful long way before he can catch you, and probably get to friendly planes or friendly ack safely. Don't forget a friendly industrial facility is just as good as friendly fighters for protection.

Me personally, I would probably go for the safe route in most cases, but its a split second call. Once you decide to stay and fight, keep at it until you die or he dies.


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Vermillion
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Offline RAM

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Hangtime regarding this defensive spiral....
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2000, 07:41:00 AM »
Maybe is the insctint of a Fw190 driver but...you were in a hog, he in a Stang...ok, drop the nose,grab some speed, then go nose up and start a vertical scissor...the Stang rolls bad in low speeds, and you can make him burn some E that way...eventually he'll try to gain some speed and accelerate and you'll have the edge.

I use to try it sometimes and works quite well...the rollrate is a VERY useful feature in a plane, but if you are in a bad roller,like a Spit, and you are fighting a worse one, like the N1K2, you can also do it and win...(hehe Lephturn, That's the way I did in our yesterday's training)

It's only an idea, Im still a novice trying to learn.

Offline Lephturn

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Hangtime regarding this defensive spiral....
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2000, 08:09:00 AM »
RAM is on the right track with using the roll rate... but it really doesn't work until you get to fairly high speed.  Now you are at stall speed, which is not optimum.  If he was on your six from the start, a defensive spiral is called for.  IE you start a fast dive with some spiral, and as he gets up to high speed you chop throttle, pop some flap, and pull HARD to slow down as you spiral downwards.  Optimally, he will overshoot below and you own him.  

Now in this case, you either didn't get up to speed at the start, or he didn't fall for it and is now camped out on your six.  You have two advantages vs. the 51 at this point, better low-speed handling, and a better roll rate.  My first choice would be to get into a rolling scissors going straight down.  With the F4U's roll rate, especially at speed, you will eat his lunch.  If you have him slow enough, and you have a bit more E, you might try some low speed upward manuever that he couldn't follow.. something with roll would be good.  This is very dangerous though, and you will likely die unless he is a bad shot.  However, if he misses the shot, you come out on top with him likely stalled below you and easy meat.

I think a rolling scissors going straight down would be the best move.  Get up to high speed at first, and if you aren't winning turn it into a verticle barrel roll with a throttle chop, gear pop, flaps and cross controll rudder to force the overshoot.  The trick is living long enough to get to that point.  

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Offline Duckwing6

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Hangtime regarding this defensive spiral....
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2000, 12:21:00 PM »
Verm:
i went for the safe way.. but unfortunately i thought i could get angles on him too long and we where at pretty low alt when i decided top disengage ... i got to about 900yards seperation by the time he had turned onto my 6 and we where running about 240-280 Knots at that time just above the hill tops.. not really the speed you have options with .. thinking back i should have tried for a zoom climb right after hitting the deck and see if the Hog can ride out the damage untill he stalls .. but well that was hangtime on my 6 so i guess i wouldn't have had that chance ..

What my biggest mistake was i think was to underestimate the ponys turn performance .. he was staying right with me in that nose low turn just about pinned at 90-150° aspect angle...


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Offline Vermillion

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Hangtime regarding this defensive spiral....
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2000, 01:02:00 PM »
Yah if you were fairly low, and he was only 90-150 degrees off, you really didn't have much of a chance, unless he makes a really bad mistake.

You could have tried to take the fight vertical, but even then given the low alt and the angles advantage the Pony would probably have gotten you either way.

Live and Learn   Some days you get the bear and some days the bear gets you.

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Offline fats

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Hangtime regarding this defensive spiral....
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2000, 04:41:00 PM »
You can either try to get into some rope-a-dope type sittuation, or just brute force your way out of it.


brute force:

Easy up on the turn, let the enemy on your six while going nose low then level. If you get something like 1.6k separation you have some room to play with. Then it's like defending against a higher enemy plane. Inducing overshoots and trying to capitalize on them and such. Start thinking turn radii. Of course a smart/safe playing enemy will not fall for any such tactics and will wait until your nose low defensive moves get you to deck, then nail you there.


rope-a-dope:

Since you were higher than him, you coulda rolled wings level, 0G until at the minimum speed from which you can perform immelman/hammerhead/tailslide. You must drop nose down as late as possible, or just moment before the enemy does after he has tried to follow you. If he didn't follow you, the fight is over. At the minimum a HO is guaranteed, at best you get a motionless target.

If you misjudged the energy sittuation the enemy will get a real easy shot when you are motionless at the top of your nose high move. Or perhaps another, unseen, enemy will BnZ you at the top of your move.


Neither is full proof - far from it, but guaranteed to break the endless/mindless turn-turn-turn-turn and spice up the fight. Winning ain't nothing, intense fights are everything.


//fats


Offline Downtown

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Hangtime regarding this defensive spiral....
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2000, 08:04:00 AM »
I was in a 1C a couple of night ago.

I was a rook, and it think it was near F4.

Anyhow, I got the drop on this spit, and took his wing pretty quick.  As I started to climb, I see a pair of Nicks High.  Well, I did the manly thing, I saw a light colored patch on the ground, and dove.  A nick closed to about 850 yards, and he was a hell of a shot.  He got half my right wing.  Left Aileron, I think the Right Elevator, and my Rudder.  I had to hold the stick all the way over to the left to stay level.  He didn't get all my rudder, and I could use that to fly lazy figure 8s through the refinery ack, and got on RW and did another manly thing.  I Cried for HELP, HELP, HELP!!!!

Two nicks went down in that ack and I got credit for both, I think two planes comming to help me were shot down by others gathering near me.

I flew this way for about 10 mins (no film) and then Shamus in a Nick, and low on fuel, dove through the ack, and shot me down.  Ack got him too.

<S> to those who tried to help, and those who didn't as well.

The Hog is tough.

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Offline Hangtime

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Hangtime regarding this defensive spiral....
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2000, 06:40:00 PM »
Sorry for not hopping in here sooner.. missed the thread!

Ok; Duck.. nope; dammit I didn't record. Somebody make a note to thread HTC on auto shutdown on recorder at exit plane. The few times I remembered to turn it on; I forgot to turn it off. And I usually fly for several hours..  till my HD fills up.  

The situation. Hang (P51D) and Duck (F4U1C) merge co alt; 15k, Hang has a slight E advantage. I merge with a brisk pull up; looking over for his inital turn direction; I go with him for a one circle fight. No WAY am I giving that damn big blue beast even a single snap shot opportunity.

The first two turns spell the tale.. The ducks slower and he don't have the turn necessary to gain angles. In fact; it looks like he cashed a few more chips than I at the merge.. he went for the throat on the first turn and slowed more than I did. I just wanted to test the water; and after 2 turns his slight angles edge at the merge was gone and it became apparent I was going to (over 5 or six revolutions) get right on his butt.

The spiral is descending fairly sharply at this point.. it's bordering on a scissors; but I'm staying higher as we get close; and again; I'm not about to let that damn thing get a shot. I'm often pulling some black through these descents.. opening the spiral some; actually shedding some angles gains to keep a scissors from developing.

Duck is playing it cool; he's not loosing much.. but he also aint' gaining much. In his shoes; I'da headed the hell outta dodge by the time we got thru 8-9 k on the descent. Reason.. this Mustang ain't giving any shot opportunities. It's flying very sharp; and it won't get close enuff for a defensive scissors in the vertical descent and it's held on to that E edge. And it acts like it's got all the time in the world...

And I did. Folks, I was stroking the radar up and down every ten seconds. I had him inside the dar envelope for bish f7; and was watching for the cavalry to appear. Had it; I'da been outta dodge in a heartbeat.

The final Chips: as we come thru 8k. Now it's ante up or fold time. Having gained a few degrees in each of the previous descending spiral turns, there being no other cons about to knock my fin off, and being close enuff to my own field to feel that this will play out in fuel range of my base, I tucked the stang into the turn harder; deployed 10 degrees of flap; closed upp the throttle and pulled to a black hole. Lo and behold; the f4u stays with the turn and we flatten out right on the deck.. 500 feet. Now we get to see who's gonna break the circle first.. because on the deck flat turning; the guy that tosses the towel in first gets the nylon letdown.

He continues to pull the turn.. around and round to the left we go; I continue to make a few degrees on each pass. I have plenty of wep; about 1/8 of a tank of fuel and 10 degrees of flap out; flying the stall warning horn hoarse and ruddering the nose up a bit to make the circle less flat. Micro-yo-yo's.   I'm working the Mustang in a stallfight on the deck under its best config to do so; and I'm guessing the F4U is not so blessed.. because he ain't gettin any closer around the circle.

The F4u appears to be turning with 30-40 degrees of flap.. and is wallowing a bit. I watch his nose and wings.. slight weaving is apparent. He's deeper in the stall; and slower. This is why I'm gaining. Is he wepped out? Is he fuel heavy?? Empty ext tank still on? I dunno. I'm mildly surprised.. I expected a late scissors reverse; but instead; he folds his hand and starts an extend on the most distant point of our circle. By the book.  

I smile. His only defensive move now is a flat scissors on the deck when I catch him.. and I WILL catch him. He starts the weave with a break to the right while I'm about 800 yards back; I simply pull up a bit and roll inverted. As he starts to roll back to the left I pull down; point the nose at his tail and start a reduced power lag turn; and pull hard to lead as he breaks left. If I miss the shot I can kick the wep back in and at full throttle, haul back over him and repeat.. but his planform fills the gunsight; and at 120 yards I give him the full 3 second dose.

Where did Duck go wrong?? He did everything 'by the book'.. except depart when he had a chance at 8k.. Half of the alt gone and no clear edge means yer in deep doggie doo.. get out when yah can if the other guy seems to have more cards than you.

I knew by watching his turns that this was no newbie.. he was playing the F4U's cards pretty well.. the only edge I had at the start was a hair more E.. and when he saw he couldn't trump that E card he shoulda tossed the book an tried to start the scissors immediately; or gotten outta dodge.

Note: The F4u has gear deployment avail up to 400mph. He coulda chopped the throttle; popped as much flap as airpeed allowed; dumped the gear out and started a tight spiral dive putting his canopy towards me at all times. No way a stang can stay with that.. Id'a HAD to pull up or squirt by; and when I did pull up (no one with half a brain is gonna let his P51 get in front of an F4u); He shoulda pulled gear in; flaps up; wep on and dove out for home; opening up the distance as much as possible. If he can get to d3 seperation; he can turn back and give me 'old facefull'.. because If the stang driver is so inclined; he can catch yah. Eventually.  

Me; I'da had to turn for home.. I only arrived in his view to investigate a con near my base as I as RTB for fuel.. I had not the gas to chase...

All in all a very good fight. Under those circumstances.. clear air; just the two of us; no obstructions like canyon terrain.. these are places and circumstances for 'match duel'; type of flying. The arena rarely offers this freedom; and a Mustang will encounter few adversaries it can clobber in a turnfight. The two I'll try on are another Mustang; and an F4u. All others have such a significant turn edge that a co-e co-alt fight is a walkover for the stangs adversary.

Duck happened to be in the wrong plane; the wrong place; at the wrong time. If nothing else.. remember the ROE as taught by my cat: Attack DOWN. Evade UP   Learned this from watching my cat fly. (12 kills in AW) Tho dammed if it ain't funny as hell watching a p51 attempt to climb a tree trying evade a ravening howling spitfire. *sigh* I guess some things work lots better without a plane.  

Salute Duck! Damn good fight.

Hang
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Offline Duckwing6

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Hangtime regarding this defensive spiral....
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2000, 02:40:00 AM »
And Salute to you for this EXCELLENT Review of the Fight Hangtime !!

You are right .. i was out of WEP, flaps 30 at the last turn and in a stall that i could hardly keep my wings level  

Lesson Learned! (give up when you still have some alt below ya to get out of dodge!)



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Hangtime regarding this defensive spiral....
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2000, 05:53:00 AM »
"Note: The F4u has gear deployment avail up to 400mph. He coulda chopped the throttle; popped as much flap as airpeed allowed; dumped the gear out and started a tight spiral dive putting his canopy towards
me at all times. No way a stang can stay with that.."

Hang's right. That's the proper way to pull a defensive spiral, i.e, pop everything you can (open canopy, drag foot if you can). The idea in a defensive spiral is to use everything possible to slow down as much as possible. If you do it right, and you still can't shake him, and you're low enough, you can jump out of the plane and take off for the hills like a striped-assed ape  

Offline Duckwing6

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Hangtime regarding this defensive spiral....
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2000, 06:06:00 AM »
I have a bit of a blockage in regards of DUMPING speed .. usually everything outaccelerates the HOG so every knot you loose you'll not be able to catch up ...

Is the pony or the HOG faster in acceleration ? because only then it would make sense to dump the speed so he overs hoots.... else he just breaks off and i'm a hanging target ..

Btw.. i was already as slow as she get's with flaps 30 and in the tightes possible turn .. and still couldn't turn with Hangs pony. Even thou i was low on fuel (30% maybe?) ..

I guess i shouldn't have gotten in that Spiral in the first place and should have gone vertical on the merge (Hang i had pulled black on the first turn because initially i was pretty fast...) -> heheh i got the traget  Hangtime was hunting  

Offline Vermillion

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Hangtime regarding this defensive spiral....
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2000, 06:29:00 AM »
While the Pony is definitely not a sprinter, it accelerates much faster than the Hog.

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Offline Lephturn

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Hangtime regarding this defensive spiral....
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2000, 10:46:00 AM »
Hehe, everything out accelerates the Hog.  

One thing I do notice is that Hangtime mentions seeing a bunch of flap popped on the Hog.  Big mistake.  If he had used no flap at all, he might possibly have been able to win.  Check my web site on the training page for some notes I made on the F4U in just this situation.  Also Hangtime, unless something has changed recently, the P51 will turn slower with even 1 notch of flap over a sustained period.  I know HTC's site says it's better, but my testing never bore that out.  After about 180 degrees to 360 degrees of turn, you are better off to reel the flaps in and just ride the horn with WEP on.

I shouldn't be telling you guys this stuff.  Now I'm gonna die more. <G>  I guess that's the price I pay for being a trainer.  

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Offline Hangtime

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Hangtime regarding this defensive spiral....
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2000, 06:06:00 PM »
Hiya Lepturn. (congrats on yer new godlike status) Yup.. I'm not convinced the stangs flaps are what the developer intended them to be. (as well of some other aspects of the AH-P51 flight model, but nobody at HTC seems to really give a damn what I think)

Did some good comparitive tests with Camel a while back; and came to the same conclusion you did. IMHO the AH P51 will negotiate a better sustained turn without them. However, the AH Mustangs best sustained turn speed is significantly faster than the dirt nap speeds we were flyin.   (did i see a VW pass us??)

I the Duck/F4u situation; I was running them in and out as speed dictated for the situation as they do seem to produce marginally better controlability at minimum airspeed. I don't usually even consider deployment of 'combat flap' in this sim till the airspeed falls under 170. Turn radius was not my biggest problem here.. stalling out was.

Another 'good' use of AH flap is simple braking.. in a fast decending turn having the flaps cracked seems to lessen the G loading/speed buildup; and also seems to speed blackout recovery. Certainly it appears the high-speed stall/snap characteristics are abated somewhat. No hard data on all this.. just seat of the pants impressions on how it 'feels'.

One aspect of flap here that deserves some additional comment is the climb benefit.. when I pull the nose up at minimum airspeed with combat flap deployed stall departure appears delayed. I've used them with apparent success on many a spiral climb..    

Another odd note.. throttle/flap relationships seem kinda strange. I'm not experiencing the pitch changes I'd expect relative to throttle settings with flaps deployed.. seems the same wepped or on the glide. Part of the missing prop modeling?

Anyhow.. thanks for the observations..

Hang


[This message has been edited by Hangtime (edited 02-18-2000).]
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.