K4 vs Spit 16 climb

[Ardy123]

German fuel was not gasoline.. It was synthetic, often processed from charcoal and other things.

This is why it belched big black clouds of smoke when pilots attacking bombers would firewall their throttles. Bomber gunners mistakenly reported hits/kills because they thought they had shot the engine up, but it wasn't the case.

The C3 was comparable to 100 octane, at the high end... For using it at lower throttles there were different characteristics. I don't recall if it was the German gas or post-war testing US gas in German planes, but at lower power settings you had greater chances of clogging valves and the like, and one ran lean where the other ran rich, or something confusing.

You can generalize it and say top-end was similar to 100 octane. It's much more complicated, though.

I believe their fuel was made from coal not charcoal. It was made using the Fischer–Tropsch process.

[Krusty]

Thank you, you're right... Didn't think about it, but they are different things.

[Debrody]

And we still do not have a late model spit.

What do you mean? Im not a spit expert, but im almost sure the spit8 wasnt in front service until early '44. Which one would be a late-war spit? I cant even think about what a spit8 could do with 150 octane fuel...
Anyway i still LOVE spit16s coming with 5k alt then run from my g-6... lol

[STEELE]

Wow, they made aviation fuel from coal? I just assumed it was some sort of ethanol based synthetics. The climb chart comparison does look very even, hmm. 

[SectorNine50]

Interesting, anyone have any more info on this synthetic fuel?  That's pretty crazy.

[Lusche]

Interesting, anyone have any more info on this synthetic fuel?  That's pretty crazy.

Good start: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_fuel#History

[jolly22]

I can settle this once and for all....The 109K4 is better than the Spitfire..... 

[MachFly]

I can settle this once and for all....The 109K4 is better than the Spitfire..... 

No

The only thing it can do better is run 

(no offence to any of the 109 folks)

[Ardy123]

No

The only thing it can do better is run 

(no offence to any of the 109 folks)

This is true, the k4 in AH is out classed as a dog fighter by the spit 16....

but,

People in WW2 didn't fight like we do, and the K4 is much faster than the spit 16, so in a situation without icons and people Bnzing out of the sun, as I believe 109s were used (according to what Eric Hartmann wrote, etc..), then the 109 is at an advantage, as the spit can't get to it. They have roughly the same climb rate and the 109 k4 is much faster. Also,  being a small aircraft, it is very hard to see in RL.

[Ruah]

I can settle this once and for all....The 109K4 is better than the Spitfire..... 

this

[MiloMorai]

That chart looks like the K-4 1.98ata of which were only penny pocket in number.

[Ardy123]

That chart looks like the K-4 1.98ata of which were only penny pocket in number.

I believe that is only true for k4s that achieved 1.98 not using wep and c-3 fuel, I could be wrong though. There were different engines used in the k4, the DB605D, DB605L and DB605DC and different fuels, B-4 or C-3. I think the max non-wep level for B-4  was 1.8 ata and 1.98 for c-3.

On mill power the k4 is faster too, and the k4 has wep that lasts much longer.

[Ardy123]

update, it looks like that 1.98 was banned in Jan 20 1945, then reinstated in March '45  

banning the use of 1.98 ata
http://www.kurfurst.org/Engine/Boostclearances/DB_Niederschrift6730_DB605DBDC_20-1-45.pdf

re-permitting the use of 1.98 ata
http://www.kurfurst.org/Engine/Boostclearances/605D_clearance198.html

[Krusty]

If you look at AH's speed charts for the 109K it doesn't match the specs for a 1.98ata C3. Instead, it matches 1.8ata B4+MW50 power curves and specs.

This has been argued and debated and discussed ad nauseum. I fail to understand why a few diehards keep claiming we have 1.98ata, especially after all these years.

AH's speeds:



Copied from:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,109853.msg1140560.html#msg1140560

"Speed, again w/o C-3, in the worst condition -

K-4s 593 km/h at SL, 712 km/h at 7500m."

That's 370mph

Copied from:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,157067.msg1770371.html#msg1770371

"Just to see what`s the fuss all about... 1.8ata K-4 vs. 1.98ata K-4.
SL speeds :
595 kph vs. 607 kph
SL climb :
22 m/sec vs 24.5 m/sec..."

That's about 371 mph.

Copied from:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,157067.msg1766393.html#msg1766393

"The Projektbüro estimate from 19.1.45 assumes 9-12159 propeller, and a weight of 7,496 lbs. Documentation listed below demonstrates that the most prevalant configuration for the ME 109 K beginning in around January 1945 would be DB 605 DB engine with 1.80 ata/2800 rpm engine limitations. GL/C-E2 from 1.11.44 gives 360 mph at SL, 441 mph at 24,606 ft. with production 9-12159 propeller. Various engine and propeller configurations were experimented with. The 9-12159 propeller was the standard production propeller but various German curves are extant showing estimated performance of the 109 K4 with 9-12199.10 and 9-17018.10 thin blade (Dünnblatt) props and Projektschraube with 4 light-metal blades. The 452 mph figure often cited as the top speed of the Me 109 K-4 derives from an estimate assumming an experimental 9-12199 Dünnblatt propeller."

That matches closely what we have in-game, depending on the prop used. Note depending on the prop even 1.8ata can have 10mph less sea level speed. Doesn't mean as compared to 1.98ata, it means compared to other 1.8ata setups with different props.

Quoted from (let's say):
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,108817.msg1131294.html#msg1131294

"The best figure available for the K4 at sea level is 377 mph"

This compares to the 1.98 ata quoted above, as 607kph.


We clearly have 1.8ata modeled in-game, and every reference including the cockpit instruments from day 1 when the plane was added as a G-10 have shown this.

There, I spelled it out....  here's hoping that never pops up again.

[Ardy123]

Krusty, Thank you for the clarification.