Author Topic: Electro-Magnetic-Space/Time Continuum?  (Read 1716 times)

Offline dedalos

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Re: Electro-Magnetic-Space/Time Continuum?
« Reply #30 on: February 08, 2011, 09:32:26 AM »
are you serious? ;)

in short (very short)
its all about how all started, how particles formed and matter build up, after the we call it "Big Bang"
Colliders create new massive particles, one day we maybe found out how/why elementary particles
getting different masses at their Birthday. One (1) of the things they try to find is the Higgs boson.
It is a hypothetical massive elementary particle predicted to exist by the Standard Model of particle physics,
that explains how most of the known elementary particles become massive.




Dude, DO NOT argue with the man that kicked a mainframes arse in tic tac toe in an epic fight  :old:
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline eagl

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Re: Electro-Magnetic-Space/Time Continuum?
« Reply #31 on: February 08, 2011, 01:58:12 PM »
Here's the thing that might make it easier to comprehend, from a much simpler perspective.

Scientists start out with a known fact.  For example, things are pulled together with a force that is related to the distance between the objects.  Also, electrical currents and objects with aligned metallic particles are "magnetic", and the resulting forces line up in a characteristic pattern.

They take these facts, and start dreaming up reasons WHY.  They make theories.

The critical thing here is that while coming up with these theories, they must also have a way to TEST them.  And that is why the wave theories are presented as how things like gravity work.  They postulated that gravity forces act like waves, and then they came up with actual tests to see if during the test, the real world behaves the same as their theory predicts.  Of the millions of theories people have come up with over many many centuries, the theories in the OP have "passed" the most tests.  Some theories remain strange, yet they pass tests that support more than one theory.  The best example is the wave/particle/uncertainty theories of light.  You can measure the impacts of light photons on a surface, indicating that photons are particles.  But if you shoot photos at 2 apertures, you get interference patterns on the other side indicating that those photons are acting like waves.  Even more confusing, if you shoot a single photon at 2 apertures, you STILL get an interference pattern even though the photon could have only gone through one of the two apertures, indicating that at some level of physical size, the universe won't show it's hand regarding random events.  This last one is part of the goofy world of quantum physics.

The point is that we STILL may not know exactly how that stuff works, and why.  But we've come up with tests to see if our theories match what really happens.  And when it comes to making practical applications out of theoretical physics, that's often good enough until the applications rely on exact theoretical perfection that the application doesn't work anymore, indicating that the original theory is either wrong or incomplete.  At that point the theorists try to plug the holes in the theory or come up with a new one (as in Einstein explaining things that can't be explained with Newtonian physics, and Quantum theory explaining areas that can't be explained with anything that came before).

So don't get wrapped up in the conceptual details unless you actually work in those fields, because they are really just theories that have not yet been dis-proven by experiment.  At some point, things like wave/particle duality of light and quantum effects will probably be integrated into a single theory.  We're just not there yet.
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Offline eagl

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Re: Electro-Magnetic-Space/Time Continuum?
« Reply #32 on: February 08, 2011, 02:01:46 PM »
Well hopefully some of these things will be discovered by the LHC(Large Hadron Collider).

If it doesn't blow up the universe first...
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Offline Gh0stFT

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Re: Electro-Magnetic-Space/Time Continuum?
« Reply #33 on: February 08, 2011, 05:16:14 PM »
Here's the thing that might make it easier to comprehend, from a much simpler perspective.

Scientists start out with a known fact.  For example, things are pulled together with a force that is related to the distance between the objects.  Also, electrical currents and objects with aligned metallic particles are "magnetic", and the resulting forces line up in a characteristic pattern.

They take these facts, and start dreaming up reasons WHY.  They make theories...


thats the only way we can learn...
Richard Phillips Feynman (physicist) explained this in this video very nice:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1dgrvlWML4

look for more very interesting stuff from him, its worth.


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The statement above is false.

Offline Sonicblu

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Re: Electro-Magnetic-Space/Time Continuum?
« Reply #34 on: February 09, 2011, 11:43:16 PM »
They just don't know yet.

There are a lot of unproven theories out there. I think it is a little bit funny they act like some of them are fact just because they have passed every test so far. One example in quantum physics is the one and two slit test, basically you fire photons at a slit and observe what happens. Theoreticaly they should land on the other side in a random mess, however they don't they are very organized. So one theory is that they take every possible path at the same time.
Well come on how could a theory like this be refuted, there is no way not  to test it, so to speak. It is circular reasoning.  Science presupposes logic and reason but it rarely gets used.
Also are the tests they come up with up to the standard of quantum physics? How can they be? They don't know how they work. Most of it is just not observable yet.

The best we can say is that they are useful lies to get use to the next step.

Offline lengro

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Re: Electro-Magnetic-Space/Time Continuum?
« Reply #35 on: February 10, 2011, 02:21:56 AM »
basically you fire photons at a slit and observe what happens. Theoreticaly they should land on the other side in a random mess, however they don't they are very organized. So one theory is that they take every possible path at the same time.

(Two slits shows exact wave pattern - one slit shows exact particle pattern - not random)

As far as I know, you even can't say for sure how the photons should act - as we really don't know what a photon exactly is. Is it a particle? a wave? both (whatever that is)? or someting else?

They just don't know yet.

Exactly
« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 02:42:41 AM by lengro »
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Offline bozon

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Re: Electro-Magnetic-Space/Time Continuum?
« Reply #36 on: February 10, 2011, 03:33:40 AM »
(Two slits shows exact wave pattern - one slit shows exact particle pattern - not random)

As far as I know, you even can't say for sure how the photons should act - as we really don't know what a photon exactly is. Is it a particle? a wave? both (whatever that is)? or someting else?
Light and all quantum particles propagate (travel) as waves, period. Light and all quantum particles interact as particles, period.

Both in the case of a single slit and two slits, the photon travel as a wave through them. If you fire enough of them you will find the dispersion pattern of a wave - even through only one slit you can tell the difference between a (classical) wave and a particle propagation. There is no randomization involved in this part. Only when it comes to interaction, the photon "hitting" something, then randomization kicks in: You can fire a photon at an atom in the exact same way over and over again, sometimes it will kick an electron in the atom to a higher level and sometimes just pass through and continue as a wave till it interacts with something else instead.

The problem in this particle-wave duality is our imagination, not the mathematical description. We tend to visualize things as objects in our macro world, but there are things that simply do not have a household object equivalent. A quantum particle is one. Spin is another - try to imagine an object that can only be spinning around axis up or down. Even if you rotate it, or look at it from another angle, it still will look like up/down. And finally, when you rotate it around itself 360 degrees it becomes inverted and you need to turn it 720 degrees to return to the state from which you started.

There are a lot of unproven theories out there. I think it is a little bit funny they act like some of them are fact just because they have passed every test so far.
By that standard we do not know anything at all. Nothing is proven in science, if you use the math/philosophy criterion for "proof". When you insist on absolute truths, you start from "I think therefore I am" and basically end there. This is the reason that science parted from philosophy more than 100 years ago. While philosophers argue about meaning and absolute truths in texts that nobody else but them read, science got us to the moon and created the internet with easy pr0n access for all, based on unproved theories.
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Offline lengro

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Re: Electro-Magnetic-Space/Time Continuum?
« Reply #37 on: February 10, 2011, 04:51:04 AM »
The problem in this particle-wave duality is our imagination, not the mathematical description. We tend to visualize things as objects in our macro world, but there are things that simply do not have a household object equivalent. A quantum particle is one. Spin is another - try to imagine an object that can only be spinning around axis up or down. Even if you rotate it, or look at it from another angle, it still will look like up/down. And finally, when you rotate it around itself 360 degrees it becomes inverted and you need to turn it 720 degrees to return to the state from which you started.

In my head, it gets even worse with entangled particles. As I understand it (and I'm no expert by any means) - they are fired in opposite directions from the same source, and when they are ligth years apart, you can do something to one particle, and the same thing will happen to the other - instantly?

Even though scientist are good at describing such observations with great precision - I look forward to the day (if it ever will come), when someone can explain to me, whats really going on.
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Offline RTHolmes

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Re: Electro-Magnetic-Space/Time Continuum?
« Reply #38 on: February 10, 2011, 06:46:38 AM »
They just don't know yet.

blah blah blah

The best we can say is that they are useful lies to get use to the next step.

shouldnt that be we dont know yet?

and useful lies?

I smell some kind of anti-science agenda here, maybe you should decare your interests.
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Offline dedalos

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Re: Electro-Magnetic-Space/Time Continuum?
« Reply #39 on: February 10, 2011, 09:13:15 AM »
This is the reason that science parted from philosophy more than 100 years ago. While philosophers argue about meaning and absolute truths in texts that nobody else but them read, science got us to the moon and created the internet with easy pr0n access for all, based on unproved theories.

Please explain what exactly about the internet or going to the moon is based on unproven theories?  Some things we understand and some things  we don't and make assumptions.  No need to lump everything together.  What does quantum physics have to do with going to the moon or the internet?
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline bozon

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Re: Electro-Magnetic-Space/Time Continuum?
« Reply #40 on: February 10, 2011, 11:15:25 AM »
Quantum mechanics was essential for both. Just a theory.
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Offline dedalos

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Re: Electro-Magnetic-Space/Time Continuum?
« Reply #41 on: February 10, 2011, 12:09:19 PM »
Quantum mechanics was essential for both. Just a theory.

OK, it is easy to just type something like that.  Can you explain how quantum mechanics was involved with the moon landing?  Go ahaead, I am getting my boots on  :neener:
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline moot

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Re: Electro-Magnetic-Space/Time Continuum?
« Reply #42 on: February 10, 2011, 12:37:29 PM »
By that standard we do not know anything at all. Nothing is proven in science, if you use the math/philosophy criterion for "proof". When you insist on absolute truths, you start from "I think therefore I am" and basically end there. This is the reason that science parted from philosophy more than 100 years ago. While philosophers argue about meaning and absolute truths in texts that nobody else but them read, science got us to the moon and created the internet with easy pr0n access for all, based on unproved theories.
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Offline RTHolmes

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Re: Electro-Magnetic-Space/Time Continuum?
« Reply #43 on: February 10, 2011, 03:15:53 PM »
Can you explain how quantum mechanics was involved with the moon landing?

they used lots of semiconductors. development of semiconductors depended on a throrough understanding of the behaviour of electrons, specifically the Pauli principle - one of the theories of quantum mechanics.
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Offline dedalos

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Re: Electro-Magnetic-Space/Time Continuum?
« Reply #44 on: February 10, 2011, 03:51:15 PM »
they used lots of semiconductors. development of semiconductors depended on a throrough understanding of the behaviour of electrons, specifically the Pauli principle - one of the theories of quantum mechanics.

 :rofl ok, even if we want to stretch it that far, semiconductors were not a theory.  No one got in a space ship based on a theory hoping they were right  :lol   But that is just stretching it a bit,no?
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.