Instigating a furball. How does this phenomenon occur?

[Citabria]

been a topic in a few threads and in squad vox often about how its hard to get consistant furballs.

I am interested in how a furball even happens and can give some theories but the truth is no one has a solid grasp of the dynamics of how they work because the factors that can create one are often varried.

lets dissect a couple of requirements and then common causes of a large scale sustained furball lasting 20 minutes or longer.

1. Numbers, Reinforcements and the Cycle of the Furball.
 - A sustained furball is in actuality a hamster wheel.
 - Takeoff>Climbout to Altitude>Engage>Maneuver & Lose Altitude>Kill or be Killed>RTB or Instant Tower.
 - You can add a modifier of Disengage in place or Kill or be Killed and re-enter the Hamster wheel in the climbout stage.
 - Disengaging or "running away" can have a negative or positive effect on the furballs stability.
 - Disengaging removes you from the cannon fodder kill or be killed phase and you become a reinforcment again if you get away clean.
 - if while attempting to disengage you are followed for some distance by enemy aircraft and caught it can cause the furball to thin out into isolated pockets of fighting.
 - Two or more opposing sides must have a balance in equal amounts of attrition and reinforcements participating and joining the fights various stages.
 - If the forces are not balanced or if reinforcements are interupted the fight will keep moving to the weak sides point of origin.
 - If a skill imbalance occurs and one side destroys the other and survives intact it will almost always destabilize the furball if the surviving side is not rtb and stays on the offensive.
 - they will intercept the enemies reinforcements and be joined by their own reinforcments thus causing a steamroller that devolves into a vulch at the enemies field that can end in the losing side giving up and moving to another location or the weaker side overpowering the vulchers with numbers and regaining balance thus pushing the furball back toward the oposing sides base.
 - Players must be shot down and reup to reinforce the furball in equal amounts on both sides to sustain the furball.
 - A 5v5 furball would likely need 20 players on each side in various points along the furball hamster wheel to keep the furball going.
 - The more players participating in the furball the greater the chance of an imbalance occuring in attrition or reinforcements. And thus the more unstable the Furball will be.


will discuss causes of this furball phenomenon in a bit...

[StabOps]

Last night a furball developed between 96 and 110.

Started out with a couple of guys doin 1v1s and talkin back and forth on 200. Next thing ya know, 2 guys are takin turns vs 1 red guy. Next development was a couple hi cons come in and bnz the low fight. Within an hour, it was 10v10 and lasted about an hour.

not sure i want to tackle the dynamics of the fight, but that is one way a furball gets instigated.

As a squad, sometimes we will take a base and trash talk 200 until something develops, not a sure thing but i've seen it happen.

<S> JUGgler


...just sayin'

Stabs

[CAP1]

see? what i do to instigate a furball, is to paint a big target on my aircraft. i then go to the ava, and fly into the enemy. they pounce on me. then some countrymen come in to save my stupid ass(they're generally a little too late), and we then have fights that last for hours. 

[Citabria]

assuming the causes are as varried as the furballs themselves lets list a few types of furballs.


1. trash talking fighter sweep furball as mentioned above. simple a2a combat lasts as long as both sides stay interested as the aggressors in enemy territory are after scalps not land.

2. MISSUN! furball depends on the size of the mission, the response of the opposition and value of the target. This can if the mission loses the element of surprise turn into a furball. Sustainability is low if the players in the mission have the goal of capturing a base but are unwilling to battle for it and want a rapid sneak capture. they will ussually pick a new target after getting killed by a heavy defense or if no defense is mounted simply cap the base with no fight at all due to their overwhelming numbers.

3. combined arms Furball is a personal holy grail of mine from a map making perspective. The most spectacular variety of Furball type combat with tanks battling below sturmoviks jaboing and fighters stacked at all altitudes feeding on eachother and the jabos and any bombers daring enough to venture into the mix. it is almost like a food chain and an ecosystem in and of itself and has the delicate balance of a coral reef. I have often contemplated a map devoted solely to this type of combined arms furball by having vbases placed between all airfields in a linear fashion with few or limited spawn points much like a tank town spanning the entire map all the way to an enemies HQ. I've always felt that the gv bases were the one and only way to get a sustained furball anchored at two or 3 points between airfields based on where the ground war was occuring.

[waystin2]

The Pigs usually set out to create a fight.  Sometimes it just takes a bomb or two to get them stirred up, other times it takes a full blown deack & kill VH Pig vulchfest to really kick the ant pile.  I will say sometimes the most innocuous thing can kick it off.  Just flashing a dar circle sometimes is enough to fire it up.  I am sure there are other methodologies.

[B4Buster]

Distances between bases is a huge factor too. Interesting way of looking at it. A furball is its own ecosystem with its own food chain.

[JUGgler]

Last night a furball developed between 96 and 110.

Started out with a couple of guys doin 1v1s and talkin back and forth on 200. Next thing ya know, 2 guys are takin turns vs 1 red guy. Next development was a couple hi cons come in and bnz the low fight. Within an hour, it was 10v10 and lasted about an hour.

not sure i want to tackle the dynamics of the fight, but that is one way a furball gets instigated.

As a squad, sometimes we will take a base and trash talk 200 until something develops, not a sure thing but i've seen it happen.

<S> JUGgler





...just sayin'

Stabs

Yes that 1 guy be me


Working diligently at my "create furball skills"



<S> Stabs


JUGgler

[JUGgler]

been a topic in a few threads and in squad vox often about how its hard to get consistant furballs.

I am interested in how a furball even happens and can give some theories but the truth is no one has a solid grasp of the dynamics of how they work because the factors that can create one are often varried.

lets dissect a couple of requirements and then common causes of a large scale sustained furball lasting 20 minutes or longer.

1. Numbers, Reinforcements and the Cycle of the Furball.
 - A sustained furball is in actuality a hamster wheel.
 - Takeoff>Climbout to Altitude>Engage>Maneuver & Lose Altitude>Kill or be Killed>RTB or Instant Tower.
 - You can add a modifier of Disengage in place or Kill or be Killed and re-enter the Hamster wheel in the climbout stage.
 - Disengaging or "running away" can have a negative or positive effect on the furballs stability.
 - Disengaging removes you from the cannon fodder kill or be killed phase and you become a reinforcment again if you get away clean.
 - if while attempting to disengage you are followed for some distance by enemy aircraft and caught it can cause the furball to thin out into isolated pockets of fighting.
 - Two or more opposing sides must have a balance in equal amounts of attrition and reinforcements participating and joining the fights various stages.
 - If the forces are not balanced or if reinforcements are interupted the fight will keep moving to the weak sides point of origin.
 - If a skill imbalance occurs and one side destroys the other and survives intact it will almost always destabilize the furball if the surviving side is not rtb and stays on the offensive.
 - they will intercept the enemies reinforcements and be joined by their own reinforcments thus causing a steamroller that devolves into a vulch at the enemies field that can end in the losing side giving up and moving to another location or the weaker side overpowering the vulchers with numbers and regaining balance thus pushing the furball back toward the oposing sides base.
 - Players must be shot down and reup to reinforce the furball in equal amounts on both sides to sustain the furball.
 - A 5v5 furball would likely need 20 players on each side in various points along the furball hamster wheel to keep the furball going.
 - The more players participating in the furball the greater the chance of an imbalance occuring in attrition or reinforcements. And thus the more unstable the Furball will be.


will discuss causes of this furball phenomenon in a bit...

Furballs usually breakdown cause a few peeps really can't handle going to the tower, so they come back with more and more alt and more uber planes! This starts to tip the balance in favor of the alties, and this starts the migration of said furball towards the enemy base where it turns into a cherryfest. Without these fragile folks the furball will more than likely continue as repsective skill level is usually even cause this type of fight attracts the "same" mindset,  "like attracted to like" and attrition maintains the status quo.

Also when a few peeps go to bed the furball ends also



JUGgler

[BnZs]

Furballs usually breakdown cause a few peeps really can't handle going to the tower, so they come back with more and more alt and more uber planes! This starts to tip the balance in favor of the alties, and this starts the migration of said furball towards the enemy base where it turns into a cherryfest. Without these fragile folks the furball will more than likely continue as repsective skill level is usually even cause this type of fight attracts the "same" mindset,  "like attracted to like" and attrition maintains the status quo.

Also when a few peeps go to bed the furball ends also
JUGgler

No. Cherrying bases develops because you (or even you and 3-5 of your closest friends) can up, climb to 13K, and drive to an enemy base, and no one will up to meet you in the middle. Ever. Not even if you scream ALLLLLLLLLLLLLEEEEEEEEEERTTTT!!!!! EVIL PEOPLE COMING TO BASE 666!!! on 200 first.  Oddly, people are SLIGHTLY more likely to up proactively if you bring 50 of your closest freinds. They usually start defending when invaders actually start porking on deacking, which I almost never do. While we're on that subject, alot of base defense, involving use of ack, flak, and hyper-modeled short range UFO planes against many foes who are just suicidal porking/jabo lemmings, or God forbid, flying NAVY planes, is just as (un)sporting and about easy kills as the "base cherrying" you talk about constantly. In any case, to my mind, given equal numbers, things are fairly evenly matched between defenders and "base cherriers" UNTIL toolshedders and deackers do their business, then its just you trying to up, Jugg, while twenty planes are circling in the pattern trying to vulch you simultaneously and I'm grumbling over range that if we gave them something that looked kind of like a sporting chance to get gear up the victim stream wouldn't go dry...*sigh*...when will people learn to not to roast the fluffing gold-egg-laying goose?

So yeah...basically most fights today ARE about you and your alt advantage vs. them and their horde of spixteens LaLas circling in ack...but IMO it is as much the defender's fault as the aggressors. I don't blame the guy at 20K in an uberplane, or trying to climb to 20K in an uberplane, I blame the defender's lack of iniative, the guy in buffs or jabos taking away the defender's toys, and the fact that it is entirely possible to capture a base *without* establishing anything resembling total air superiority.

I don't really think you can blame the score padding mindset Jugg. I think the real mindset problem is making it all about either taking base or defending bases.

[Soulyss]

A furball has been known to occur when Silat flies over an enemy field, broadcasting a comely "you-hoo boys".  If that doesn't work he drops a garter.

[Wiley]

The most sure-fire way I've found to get a bunch of resistance at an enemy field is to go into their radar with ~3-5 heavy fighters.  It is important that they be heavy, and not ideal dogfighting planes.  P47d-40s with a full load seem to be very good for this.  Be sure not to be very high, or very fast as you come in.

For some reason, nearly every time I do this at least 8 to 10 enemy up at the field as soon as we break radar.  If we're lucky, more from both sides come in gradually until there's a large presence on both sides.  If it grows too quickly on one side, it will die out immediately.

Wiley.

[RufusLeaking]

lets dissect a couple of requirements and then common causes of a large scale sustained furball lasting 20 minutes or longer.

Good topic.  Keyword is sustained.

It is all about balance.  You typed balance, imbalance or equal six times in the OP.

I am not sure if one can plan a persistent furball. It's like herding cats. The right pieces need to be in place, like base proximity, spawn points, ENY, etc. But, in the end, it is player behavior that will make or break the balance.

I am not sure what the tipping point is, but there comes a time when people quit returning. Maybe the cv is sunk. Maybe the hangar is down. Maybe a massive vulch is on. Maybe one side has taken to the stratosphere. Personally, I tend to set it down when it becomes a high altitude pick and run game.

With regards to map design, you sound like you are on the right track with regards to the web of vehicle bases and airfields. Having airfields at ports frees up the task groups, which are mobile furball generators.

[GNucks]

I think the way to do it is indicate that you mean to attack their base, but don't present yourself as an unstoppable force. But your strength must be significant enough to undoubtedly seize the base unless countered by an equal force. Once their uppers climb up to you bring in some reinforcements. Then it should snowball from there.

If I wanted to start a furball, I'd take no more than five planes to the enemy and leave their dar up as long as possible. I suppose this is probably common sense, but that's all that I can offer I guess. It really is a mystery imo how we can sometimes roll over a whole island w/out touching the FH's and meet little resistance. Takes two to tango I guess.

[BnZs]

If I wanted to start a furball, I'd take no more than five planes to the enemy a

I reiterate, you are more likely to get uppers in defense if you bring fifty, at least until you have the field de-acked, the hangars down, and the vulch is on.

[GNucks]

I reiterate, you are more likely to get uppers in defense if you bring fifty, at least until you have the field de-acked, the hangars down, and the vulch is on.

I suppose you're correct, but I'm inclined to believe that so many planes is more likely to discourage uppers. Maybe the enemies might come from neighboring bases with E, but that would probably be a pick-fest versus a furball. I've only been playing for a few months, I'm only recently starting to catch on to the psychology of pilots in this game.

Oh, and Citabria's second comment about the "ecosystem" was great. Those fights really are the best.