P47 vs 190

[bozon]

Here is gun camera showing the P47 easily out turning 190s and 109s at low alt. The P-47 in AH is clearly undermodeled.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8b2_1188211209&p=1

(notice: this is not from youtube. This is how you do it)

[Debrody]

lol a 15000lbs p47 should outturn the 6500lbs 109?   duuuude...

[Blooz]

Blooz I might be wrong, but I think the ZLVA in your sig stands for Ze LuftVhiners Association  
This is not anecdotal evidence, but rather filmed proof of the late 190A's superiority or at least equality with the Razorback Jug's turning ability. From the look of the ground, they seem to be passing through 10k (rough guess) in a slightly downward spiral. That's the scenario we tried to recreate. Pilot ability aside, I think the film proves late 190A's were not the bricks that they're portayed to be.      The footage seems to support the test report quoted by Jabbewock

Here's filmed proof that all rigid airships explode on landing (according to your logic).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFptgQ8GA_U

[bozon]

lol a 15000lbs p47 should outturn the 6500lbs 109?   duuuude...

I was ridiculing the derivation of conclusions about turning performance from a gun camera, but your hinted statement is just about as flawed. Please explain what am I supposed to conclude from the absolute weights of the planes regarding turning?

[SlapShot]

I don't think anyone can infer anything from these gun cameras. 99% of the time, the film only shows after the enemy's six has been acquired. You never see what transpired before that point and how that position was gained. I think that if a very experienced pilot acquires the six of the enemy, there really isn't much you can do to shake him if the planes in the battle are on somewhat equal ground and abilities.

As far as the 190 v Jug footage, it appears that the Jug did a pretty good job lasting as long as he did and the 190 pilot really had to work for that lead shot. In this case, I would say that the 190 pilot was far more experienced than the Jug pilot and really knew how to work that 190 for all it was worth.

[Soulyss]

Blooz I might be wrong, but I think the ZLVA in your sig stands for Ze LuftVhiners Association  
This is not anecdotal evidence, but rather filmed proof of the late 190A's superiority or at least equality with the Razorback Jug's turning ability. From the look of the ground, they seem to be passing through 10k (rough guess) in a slightly downward spiral. That's the scenario we tried to recreate. Pilot ability aside, I think the film proves late 190A's were not the bricks that they're portayed to be.      The footage seems to support the test report quoted by Jabbewock

That film is nearly pure anecdotal evidence.  We don't know what the altitude was, we don't know what the fuel state/relative weight between the two planes.  We don't know which pilot was better/more experienced, how many G's were being pulled and at what speed.  It also seems that in nearly all the cases that eventually the P-47 heads up and out of the top of the frame which you could interpret as either the 190 either relaxing his turn or not being able to maintain the turn in a lead pursuit position, but you'd be guessing either way.

[BnZs]

Compare known stall speeds in various configurations. That will tell you which one should have the better instantaneous turn, at the very least.

[Chalenge]

Good call.  Ignore the people who actually flew the real planes against each other.

- oldman

I think "horizontal" and "hanging it on the prop" dont belong together. Thanks for being so dense you missed it. 

[Chalenge]

That film is nearly pure anecdotal evidence.  We don't know what the altitude was, we don't know what the fuel state/relative weight between the two planes.  We don't know which pilot was better/more experienced, how many G's were being pulled and at what speed.  It also seems that in nearly all the cases that eventually the P-47 heads up and out of the top of the frame which you could interpret as either the 190 either relaxing his turn or not being able to maintain the turn in a lead pursuit position, but you'd be guessing either way.

And agreement...

[Oldman731]

I think "horizontal" and "hanging it on the prop" dont belong together. Thanks for being so dense you missed it.

I think that if you don't realize he meant that the FW was turning in a horizontal plane at a very high angle of attack, in order to maintain both his altitude and his turn radius, that you haven't learned much about flying.

- oldman

[Chalenge]

No... its clearly unclear. The FW in a high angle of attack is going to be losing control and killing the pilot (or at least losing a lot of alt). If you dont realize that you dont know diddly about 190s IRL. Thats how Spits would get the upper hand on them getting them in exactly that situation.

[save]

One thing is for sure , if the 190a8 flew like it does in AH, Luftwaffe would never accept it as a replacement superiority fighter for earlier models.

[Debrody]

Bozon,
if you have a more than two times heavier airframe, you have to produce more than two times more lift also more than two times more thrust to get the same flight performance. More than two is rather close to three in this case.
Is the jug more than two times heavyer that the 109?
Is the jug more than two times powerfuller that the 109?
Can the jugs wing produce more than two times much lift than the 109s  aka was its wingtwo times bigger?

Also... the 190s were considered as the age's best figter, from numerous sources. I dont think that the 190 should be an über turnfighter, but if it was a brick in the real life, then how could it be the Luftwaffe's best fighter?

[FLS]

A lot of sources consider the P-51 to be the best fighter of the age. Apparently slow speed turn performance wasn't high on the list of requirements for either side after the war started.

[Debrody]

FLS,
we are talking about different ages. The pony was in the european front in 1943 i think (not sure), the 190 was in front service in 1941.  The pony is a high altitude fighter, and was the best becouse was WAY more cheaper than the p47, and still was a monster at high altitudes.