Author Topic: Who would win?  (Read 800 times)

Offline Imowface

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Who would win?
« on: March 04, 2011, 02:08:10 AM »
THIS IS NOT A POLITICAL THREAD

Sort of got me thinking in another thread, if the cold war ever got started up, who would win and why, please try to keep things civilised in this, and this is about the military not the government.
Lets say the setting is 1965-70, Soviet troops advance into west germany, compleatly destroying all opposition at first, the reason being the legions of tanks and infantry that they have at hand, though they do suffer losses due to NATO's technological advantage, now, just by the nature of the war in europe, I would not be biased in saying that they would be quick to take over most if not all of europe, suffering very heavy losses in the end, but getting the job done and replacing  what they have lost, but once europe has fallen, there would be nothing more that the Soviets could do, as at that time the Navy was no match for anything the americans could muster, so my veiw is that ( and notice I did not mention the use of nukes in this "out look" as it would just be end of the world) if a war were to break out in europe in the 60's or 70's that the USSR would drive NATO out but would be halted at the sea by the US navy
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Offline gyrene81

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Re: Who would win?
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2011, 02:18:50 AM »
just to let you know the term "cold war" defined...A state of rivalry and tension between two factions, groups, or individuals that stops short of open, violent confrontation.

and it officially started in 1946...ended in 1991-1992...

but for the sake of your discussion assuming hostilities commenced...

when it was all over, these would be the survivors


probably these folks too


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Offline MachFly

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Re: Who would win?
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2011, 02:20:35 AM »
I'll start of by saying that this is a very hard question. I think almost everything was about equal, therefore it would primarily depends on tactics. That is assuming no nuclear weapons would be used, if they were than I would have to agree with gyrene's conclusion.


Also I'd like to mention that since most people here live in US, you can't expect them to give a fair answer.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2011, 02:43:55 AM by MachFly »
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Offline Tyrannis

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Re: Who would win?
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2011, 02:32:15 AM »
THIS IS NOT A POLITICAL THREAD

Sort of got me thinking in another thread, if the cold war ever got started up, who would win and why, please try to keep things civilised in this, and this is about the military not the government.
Lets say the setting is 1965-70, Soviet troops advance into west germany, compleatly destroying all opposition at first, the reason being the legions of tanks and infantry that they have at hand, though they do suffer losses due to NATO's technological advantage, now, just by the nature of the war in europe, I would not be biased in saying that they would be quick to take over most if not all of europe, suffering very heavy losses in the end, but getting the job done and replacing  what they have lost, but once europe has fallen, there would be nothing more that the Soviets could do, as at that time the Navy was no match for anything the americans could muster, so my veiw is that ( and notice I did not mention the use of nukes in this "out look" as it would just be end of the world) if a war were to break out in europe in the 60's or 70's that the USSR would drive NATO out but would be halted at the sea by the US navy
american pilots have combat experiance against russian aircrafts from fighting them in korea&vietnam. therefore i believe the USAF would dominate the skies. b52s would carpet bomb the red army 24/7. the USAF would begin heavy bombing of factories within the soviet union. the red army would grind to a halt from lack of supplies and be decimated on the ground from lack of supplies.

plus america would have 3 world powers on its side. (Britain,france, and canada) where russia merely has a couple satalite states acting as a buffer to attempt to slow down natos advance into russia, rather than acting as real support to the red army.

m60's nocked out t55s in vietnam so i see the tank warefare being won by america with heavy losses on both sides.

the USN would launch from pearl harbor. and assault the russian coastline. opening a second front. and invading russia.

the soviet union, being pushed to the limit from failing to hold back two fronts, being carpet bombed constantly, and the russian peoples spirit being broken from the constant bombing, would finally push the big red button. launching massive amounts of nukes at both the u.s and her allies in a final attempt to save itself.


America would detect the nukes being launched. and would commence M.A.D (mutual assured destruction), launching there own nukes at russia.

the ending result would be all major superpowers in the world being all but destroyed.

Offline Chalenge

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Re: Who would win?
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2011, 02:49:21 AM »
Probably Russia never had the confidence in its military to be convinced it could win even a limited European engagement.
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Offline MachFly

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Re: Who would win?
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2011, 02:51:34 AM »
Probably Russia never had the confidence in its military to be convinced it could win even a limited European engagement.

Something tells me Russians had the same amount of confidence as the Americans, otherwise it would be completely illogical.
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Offline Imowface

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Re: Who would win?
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2011, 03:18:30 AM »
Good argument Ty, but you have ignored more modern and much larger russian tanks, like the T-10, which were specificly build for combat in europe, and you also forget that Russia had plenty of combat experience in Afghanistan, as for carpet bombing B-52's, the losses would be irreplaceable due to SAM's, as far as logistics, how far is Russia away from the rest of europe compaired to the US :) Soviets would have it easy for supply's, as opposed to the US which would have long waits for ships and large aircraft (which risk getting shot down, and ships risk getting suck by suppirior Soviet submarines), as far as combat experience and atrition, WW2 has proven that no matter how many people you kill, planes you shoot down, or tanks you destroy, we will always have 30 more to replace them, and Russia is not alone, we have China, north Korea,mongolia, cuba, and vietnam to our back on the pacific side of things, so in all out man power russia wins in europe, I am trying to come at this from both sides but I really just cant see an over extended US+Nato force taking on at most a 5.3 million man army on its home turf using wepons that were designed to be used on that said turff
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Offline RTHolmes

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Re: Who would win?
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2011, 03:45:08 AM »
Also I'd like to mention that since most people here live in US, you can't expect them to give a fair answer.

US wins everything! on every level! Go USA!

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Offline Imowface

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Re: Who would win?
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2011, 03:50:44 AM »
and just to clear things up, I am not adding nukes into the discussion because again, the answer is destruction of the world ( 100mt Tsar Bomba anyone? )
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Offline Plawranc

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Re: Who would win?
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2011, 04:42:14 AM »
Depends.

War in Europe would be a definate Russian victory.
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Offline eagl

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Re: Who would win?
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2011, 05:29:43 AM »
Caveat - this is conjecture on my part, not the official or unofficial perspective of my employer.  It's just a set of theories I have based on my reading of well documented historical events and circumstances.

My guess is that we would have seen limited nuke use if conventional weapons (including really nasty ones like mines and cluster munitions) were insufficient to slow the advance long enough for reinforcements to arrive from the US and other mobilized NATO nations.

Basically if NATO started losing a ground war in Europe, tactical nukes or other WMD could have been used to slow the advance long enough for the Soviet supply chains to come to a halt.  An army can only run forward for a few days before it needs to stop for beans bullets and gas.  Tactical nuke use would have halted the war in about a week, especially if they were used only on territory that was recently taken by the Soviets, on lines of communication and supply.  Make everyone fight in an NBC environment and slow resupply to a crawl due to contamination issues, and the war simply ends in a week.  And no global retaliatory strike occurs because the territory being nuked was NATO to begin with.  An ugly but most likely effective and "least cost" solution, in terms of loss of human life, in spite of the WMD use.

Nuke and then slime a freeway or supply chokepoint, and civilians away from the immediate kill zone still have a chance to flee.  But that LOC is compromised for resupply for days, slowing the advance which saves other lives.  A tradeoff.

That's one realistic and plausible scenario...  There are others.  But supply and realistic limits on effective combat operations in an NBC environment could be decisive no matter who uses them first, even given the overwhelming numbers of troops and weapons on the Soviet side.  The bottom line is that the NATO chiefs and national leaders had the starting argument that Europe would simply not be overrun, under any circumstances.  There was never a question whether or not NATO had the military power to back that up, the only question was if the various national command structures had the willpower to do what was necessary when the time came to take irrevocable decisive action.

Then again, it might not have come to that.  The A-10, F-111, and various other aircraft had some very specialized weapons designed to do nothing but take out Soviet vehicles, including their best armor.  Liberal use of aerial delivered mines and cluster munitions may have been able to slow the advance enough that a massive amount of airpower from the states could arrive "in time", in about 48 hrs, to finish the job with conventional weapons only.  But if the advance couldn't be slowed enough, I think we'd have seen limited authorization for tac nukes or other WMD designed to slow the advance rather than halt it, in the hopes that limited use on non-soviet territory would not provoke a global retaliatory nuke strike.

Heck, why do you think many Europeans protested the presence of nukes and other WMD so vehemently?  They knew damn well those weapons could have been used on NATO soil.  War is hell and many civilians simply don't want to win at that cost.

Remember, it was stated numerous times that tactical WMD use was always an option in a European theater war.  And we didn't really start dismantling that capability until well after the cold war ended.  And lest we forget, there are still NATO nukes on NATO soil, and the old mutual defense obligations have not expired.
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Offline eagl

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Re: Who would win?
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2011, 05:32:35 AM »
and just to clear things up, I am not adding nukes into the discussion because again, the answer is destruction of the world ( 100mt Tsar Bomba anyone? )

Not necessarily.  Limited defensive use on captured/overrun NATO soil may not have triggered a global strike counterattack.  We'll never know but even old school hardline Soviet Russia would have had a hard time justifying destroying the world if Soviet soil had not been attacked.
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Offline xbrit

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Re: Who would win?
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2011, 05:35:50 AM »
Not offering any ideas apart from a good read about a similar situation, try Tom Clancys "Red Storm Rising".

Offline rpm

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Re: Who would win?
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2011, 06:14:40 AM »
Who would win? Charlie Sheen, that's what he does. Winning!
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Offline MachFly

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Re: Who would win?
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2011, 06:21:17 AM »
Caveat - this is conjecture on my part, not the official or unofficial perspective of my employer.  It's just a set of theories I have based on my reading of well documented historical events and circumstances.

My guess is that we would have seen limited nuke use if conventional weapons (including really nasty ones like mines and cluster munitions) were insufficient to slow the advance long enough for reinforcements to arrive from the US and other mobilized NATO nations.

Basically if NATO started losing a ground war in Europe, tactical nukes or other WMD could have been used to slow the advance long enough for the Soviet supply chains to come to a halt.  An army can only run forward for a few days before it needs to stop for beans bullets and gas.  Tactical nuke use would have halted the war in about a week, especially if they were used only on territory that was recently taken by the Soviets, on lines of communication and supply.  Make everyone fight in an NBC environment and slow resupply to a crawl due to contamination issues, and the war simply ends in a week.  And no global retaliatory strike occurs because the territory being nuked was NATO to begin with.  An ugly but most likely effective and "least cost" solution, in terms of loss of human life, in spite of the WMD use.

Nuke and then slime a freeway or supply chokepoint, and civilians away from the immediate kill zone still have a chance to flee.  But that LOC is compromised for resupply for days, slowing the advance which saves other lives.  A tradeoff.

That's one realistic and plausible scenario...  There are others.  But supply and realistic limits on effective combat operations in an NBC environment could be decisive no matter who uses them first, even given the overwhelming numbers of troops and weapons on the Soviet side.  The bottom line is that the NATO chiefs and national leaders had the starting argument that Europe would simply not be overrun, under any circumstances.  There was never a question whether or not NATO had the military power to back that up, the only question was if the various national command structures had the willpower to do what was necessary when the time came to take irrevocable decisive action.

Then again, it might not have come to that.  The A-10, F-111, and various other aircraft had some very specialized weapons designed to do nothing but take out Soviet vehicles, including their best armor.  Liberal use of aerial delivered mines and cluster munitions may have been able to slow the advance enough that a massive amount of airpower from the states could arrive "in time", in about 48 hrs, to finish the job with conventional weapons only.  But if the advance couldn't be slowed enough, I think we'd have seen limited authorization for tac nukes or other WMD designed to slow the advance rather than halt it, in the hopes that limited use on non-soviet territory would not provoke a global retaliatory nuke strike.

Heck, why do you think many Europeans protested the presence of nukes and other WMD so vehemently?  They knew damn well those weapons could have been used on NATO soil.  War is hell and many civilians simply don't want to win at that cost.

Remember, it was stated numerous times that tactical WMD use was always an option in a European theater war.  And we didn't really start dismantling that capability until well after the cold war ended.  And lest we forget, there are still NATO nukes on NATO soil, and the old mutual defense obligations have not expired.


Interesting, however it seems that you did not take into account the soviet air force and navy. In order to safely bomb the ground forces air superiority has to be established, if air superiority is not established there is no guarantee that US bombers would get to their target knowing the type of interceptors and SAM that soviets had. I don't know much about the soviet surface fleet but I assume it would not be an easy thing to destroy. I also know that the soviets had a good submarine fleet which would probably also cause a problem (I don't know how exactly it would compare to the US submarine fleet).

Another thing, why would the soviets invade europe when their primary enemy was the US? That invasion would only work as an early warning system.
Now if the soviets first started an attack on US mainland they would be faced with the same problems as I described in the previous scenario, and would most likely not succeed.

Therefore that is one of the reasons the war never happened. Neither side was guaranteed to win and loses were not worth the slight possibility of victory.
"Now, if I had to make the choice of one fighter aircraft above all the others...it would be, without any doubt, the world's greatest propeller driven flying machine - the magnificent and immortal Spitfire."
Lt. Col. William R. Dunn
flew Spitfires, Hurricanes, P-51s, P-47s, and F-4s