Me 410 bomb bay configurations

[morfiend]

 The R3 gunpod was a rustaz{sp}pak and it mounted under and behind the bombay so you wont see the muzzle brakes sticking out like you would on a 410 with the Mk103 in the bombay location.Certainly with a BK5 the bombay is full and there's no room.

  Now whether or not they stuck the R3 pack on either the 103 or BK5 equipped A/C is another matter.


 Moot,1 of those PDF's you were so kind to send me clearly states the different gunpack,and this is not to be confussed with the WB151 which is a completely different gunpack and was installed inside the bombay!

 The 1 of 8x20mm 410 used 4 internal 20mm and a gunpack with 4x20mm for a total of 8x20mm!


     

[lyric1]

Yep :)Not yet but I don't see why not. Will keep it in mind, thanks.  Do you know what gun's in that Ar 234 pod?

Yes but I expect you'd need different pod from the MG151 one (might look just as pod-ish, but structure would most likely be different) for 103s.  Important, because where else are you going to put 103s if the bay's occupied?  To answer this one you need to gather as much clear evidence that either supports or eliminates possible explanations. 
Yes E.G. the 4x151 bomb bay configuration's referred to as "two WB151A" mounts. 
Not guaranteed.  I've seen reference to removing "standard" guns and leaving extra guns.  I'll have exact references for this later but take my word for it for now, it's in the books.
Sounds consistent with mostly negative BK5 anecdotes
Disagree for sensible reasons I'll detail in the main 410 thread.

MG151/20 Moot.

[Wmaker]

I'll get back to this all when I'm back with the living.......

[Krusty]

The R3 gunpod was a rustaz{sp}pak and it mounted under and behind the bombay so you wont see the muzzle brakes sticking out like you would on a 410 with the Mk103 in the bombay location

No, you would.. If you mean it was a pack with 2x mk103 in it. These are LOOONG guns. So long they couldn't stick them in the 109 series. You could not have them in a pack without the barrels showing unless that pack was a very very long one. On top of that you cannot have these guns mounted with the muzzle brakes shielded by the exterior of the craft or some covering.

Massive amounts of blowback shot out up and down from the muzzle brake. They placed it outside on every installation I've seen, be it 190a gunpod (which were smoothed over aerodynamically) to 262s to 410s and even the Ho229 had them protruding.


It is a characteristic of the Mk103. You would see it every time it was ever carried. Necessity of the design.

[morfiend]

 Well in 410 squadron signal it clearly states,the 410B2/U2/R2 and R3 and R5 2mk108,2mk103 and4x151/20mm as the Rustsatz available.There's also reference to this same gunpack in 410 Kagero,so I suspect that those are fairly good references.


 I realize the difference between the Mk108 and Mk103 30mm but I still think I trust the sources above.



   

[Krusty]

Yes, the rustsatz with Mk103s is internal though. It's not a gunpod. Somebody's confused here, and it may be me... But I thought you were saying the Mk103s were in a ventral gunpod like the WB151. To that I say no, but to the "tray" insert that fits into the bomb bay, I say of course, yes.

[moot]

The thing is that there's mention at least once in two different books that the B2/U4 carried BK5+103.  I can't completely rule out that the 103 wasn't fit in the top rack of guns.  The 103 could fit in the 151/20's place, but it doesn't really look like there's enough room for its ammo where the MG151 and MG17 ammo is.  Between the pilot's and gunner's seats. One pic makes it look like there's definitely no room for it, and another like there could be.  It's like the one of those two schematics are wrong on that detail - how much distance between the two seats.




#51 and 53 are ammo bins and chutes.


You can see there could be room for a 103 where the 151 is (outside position).  Looks like some stuff would have to be moved.  My hunch is it wouldn't be done, or at least not without a lot of hassle.  See another view of the top guns, from below, here:
http://www.swannysmodels.com/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1237171925/61#61

[Krusty]

Given that it's also mentioned in a few books that 109K4s have 2x20mm cowling guns above the engine along with the 30mm hub gun, I would say the same thing: There's no evidence, there's no physical room, it's a mistake.

I know I know...


But you're putting the burden on proving it existed on yourself. The burden is on those authors, and they don't meet the burden of proof IMO.

[moot]

Well that still leaves a 103 belly pod.  The only custom fit I've seen so far is a pair of MG17s between a pair of bomb bay 151s and the standard 131 and 151 cockpit guns.

[moot]

The R3 gunpod was a rustaz{sp}pak and it mounted under and behind the bombay so you wont see the muzzle brakes sticking out like you would on a 410 with the Mk103 in the bombay location.

Morf can you say where you saw this?

The 1 of 8x20mm 410 used 4 internal 20mm and a gunpack with 4x20mm for a total of 8x20mm!

That's my guess too.  Either that, or a 151 replacing the cockpit MG131/MG17s + R5 in the bay.  But did you read this somewhere or are you guessing like I am?

[morfiend]

 Moot to be honest it's a sumation on my part,they had a 4x20mm rustpak and they had the WB151 which was installed into the bombay. Whether Dassow's had 4,20's with the 4 pack or 2x20mm plus Wb151 plus the 4x20mm rustaz I cant say for sure as I've never seen a picture of Dassow's 410.

 Oh and Krusty,I'm sure I'm not confussed but you may be the Rustaz paks were ventral mounted,R2,R3 and R5 were all mounted behind the bombay on the fuselage,the WB151 gunpod was mounted in the bombay.



   

[moot]

Morf R2/R3/R5 are almost definitely in the bay. From what I'm reading, R4 is the only external pod. WB and WT packs discerned in yellow:

Squadron p34

No sweat on this one I think.  All the books are all inconsistent with each other about half the time (e.g. in blue).  My impression is that the authors simply didn't think it these little details mattered.  Either that, or the situation at the time was just that big of a mess: Luftwaffe orders to do things a certain way, and crews+pilots doing things totally differently which then shows up in records, ambiguity that's left for historians to read and interpret depending on which records they get their hands on.

There's a few contradictions to internal R2/R3/R5 pods and external R4 pod, but all things considered it's the most credible interpretation. Especially considering the difference between WB/WT.  If that little detail hadn't been mentioned we'd still be guessing.  What a mess. 

[Krusty]

The 8-gun pack was not with a 4x gunpod. Those don't exist. They had the 2 defaults, the tray with 4 below that, and a 2x WB gunpod underneath the belly. 8 total.

[moot]

Let's agree on standard names so we don't add to the mess in the books.  Let's say cockpit, bay, and belly guns.  The guns weren't really in the cockpit but it'd make it clear what's meant.

[Krusty]

In light of Hitech's saying he doesn't want to prevent mix-matching of loads as long as they were valid loads, would you still disagree with the following?


1)  MAIN
2x 7.9mm MG17 with 1000 rpg and 2x 20mm MG151/20 with 350 rpg (and 2x 13mm MG131 "tail guns" with 500 rpg)
2x 13mm MG131 with 600 rpg and 2x 20mm MG151/20 with 350 rpg (and 2x 13mm MG131 "tail guns" with 500 rpg)

2)  BOMB BAY
empty
8x50kg
2x250kg
2x500kg
1x1000kg (maybe... rare... take it or leave it)
2x 20mm MG151/20 with 200/230 rpg (depending on source)
4x 20mm MG151/20 with ??? rpg
2x 30mm Mk108 with ??? rpg
2x 30mm Mx103 with 100 rpg
1x BK5 with 22 rpg

3) WINGS
empty
4x WGr.21
2x Drop tanks (if existed?)

4) CENTERLINE
empty
4x 50kg (on shackles that disappear when bombs not loaded)
1x 2x20mm MG151/20 gunpod with 200 rpg



On a foot note, has anybody run across what was loaded on the outboard wings? Did they actually have DT mounts? Or was it just the WGrs and nothing else?


P.S. If you disagree, moot, why? Show your work  Is it that I have left something out? I earnestly disagree with the suggestions to arbitrarily break up the A and B for fighter vs bomber roles, so other than that I've tried to get the most mainstream packages into 1 "ah plane suggestion"