Me 410 bomb bay configurations

[moot]

Can anyone with Stocker & Petrick's book say if there's clear enough evidence that you couldn't possibly fit anything inside the bay with the BK5?  Because a number of sources list (e.g.) the B-2/U4 variant as carrying both a BK5, and MK103's and/or MG151/20's *.  Or does it definitely show/mention the MK 103 and/or MG 151/20 as subbed for the baseline MG 131 or 151/20 above the bay?   

I've yet to see a single pic with even a hint of MK 103 muzzle brakes visible in the fuselage gun barrel exits that are above the bomb bay.

*e.g. Kagero book page 65, bottom of last paragraph in english column: "At Koenigsberg-Devau, aloft went rocket-armed Me 410s also equipped with BK 5s and extra 20mm and 30mm cannons."

[Wmaker]

http://www.cockpitinstrumente.de/archiv/Dokumente/ABC/m/Messerschmitt/Me%20410/Me%20410%20A-1%20U4%20Wa%20Bk%205.pdf

[moot]

Yeah and that's what Im thinking.  There's no room in there to fit the 103s, just assuming they're the same size as the MG 151/20 together with mounting structure.  It takes up the whole bay, so the only way the aircraft would carry 103s is either putting them in place of the upper 131 or 151 guns, or below the fuselage in a pod like our 110G2 gets for the 4x151/20 package.  There's such a package mentioned and pictured in books, but none of them show it used for MK 103s.
The same illustration with MK 103s instead of BK5 in yours:


BK5 from another angle:


The belly pod:


And another instance of how common are inconsistencies from book to book:


...
Unless "30mm" means MK 108s which might not be visible from outside if put where the basic MG 131 / MG 151/20 go.

[Krusty]

I think that's somebody getting confused with the 2x mk108 gunpod.... (edit: I know that's a 2x20mm pod in the pictures but I seem to recall mention of a 2x30mm pod as well)

Definitely NOT the mk103s and the BK at the same time.

[AWwrgwy]

There are two pics in Squadron/Signal's Messerschmitt Me210/410 in action, pgs 38 & 39, that show the gun ports for the 20mm MG151 and 7.9mm MG17s respectively.

Found on the web:
MG151 ports


Both MG151 and Mg17 ports:


Both?:




Look Here. I have no idea what it says.
edit: it's the rest of the page wmaker's schematic is on.

Anyway, with all the other configurations of gun packages that were carried in the bomb bay, two or four MG151s, two MK108s and, for that matter, just bombs, I don't see why they would necessarily omit the other guns.



wrongway

[lyric1]

A minor hijack if I may. I have drawings of AR-234's with the forward facing gun pods that they used for a night fighter unit & some other instances.

On one drawing it stated that later information had been received that the pods were much smaller than pictured.

Do you have any information that the smaller pod may be as you have shown? I have pictures of similar pods on 110 night fighters

[Krusty]

Lyric, I think you lost me. IF I understand correctly: The pictures posted at the top of this thread are 2x MG151/20 gunpods similar to that on the Bf110G and similar to the wing pods for Fw190As.

Totally different beast, I think.

If you check out the link I posted back when the vote was still ongoing:
http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/7614/u4wb151loadinggo9.jpg
(found here: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,299596.msg3841510.html#msg3841510 )

You will see that even 2x MG121 pods came in many different sizes. I think maybe something like this is what they put on that Ar234, especially considering they could half-recess it into the ventral cut-out area. Maybe they modified the case to blend better?

EDIT: Wrongway: I don't think the "standard guns" were really removed much. It seems they were left in place regardless of the other loadouts. I would think you are right in that they were still there.

Whether they loaded them or not? Considering the terrible reliability of the BK5 I would guess "Yes" so they could press the attack if the gun jammed.

[lyric1]

Lyric, I think you lost me. IF I understand correctly: The pictures posted at the top of this thread are 2x MG151/20 gunpods similar to that on the Bf110G and similar to the wing pods for Fw190As.

Totally different beast, I think.

If you check out the link I posted back when the vote was still ongoing:
http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/7614/u4wb151loadinggo9.jpg
(found here: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,299596.msg3841510.html#msg3841510 )

You will see that even 2x MG121 pods came in many different sizes. I think maybe something like this is what they put on that Ar234, especially considering they could half-recess it into the ventral cut-out area. Maybe they modified the case to blend better?

EDIT: Wrongway: I don't think the "standard guns" were really removed much. It seems they were left in place regardless of the other loadouts. I would think you are right in that they were still there.

Whether they loaded them or not? Considering the terrible reliability of the BK5 I would guess "Yes" so they could press the attack if the gun jammed.

Got it.

[Krusty]

My latest request for loadout options for when Aces High gets the Me410...

You may recall a similar thread here: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,299596.msg3840243.html#msg3840243

I'm proposing a "What SHOULD it have" thread from this point on. I've put a lot of thought into this, and I think it gives us the best combination of capabilities and the least cluttered hangar screen as we squint horribly to read the fonts on what we want on our loadout. Keep in mind, you add the 10 million different experimental options and you'll never see them in the hangar!!

What I broke it down as (Skip down to the bold to go straight to it):

4 categories:

1) Main loadout

2) bomb bay

3) wings

4) Centerline

NOTE: All of these include 2x 13mm MG131 "tail guns" with 500 rpg each.

1)  MAIN
2x 7.9mm MG17 with 1000 rpg and 2x 20mm MG151/20 with 350 rpg
2x 13mm MG131 with 600 rpg and 2x 20mm MG151/20 with 350 rpg

2)  BOMB BAY
empty
8x50kg
2x250kg
2x500kg
1x1000kg (maybe... rare but used... willing to take it or leave it in my list here)
2x 20mm MG151/20 with 200/230 rpg (depending on source)
4x 20mm MG151/20 with ??? rpg
2x 30mm Mk108 with ??? rpg
2x 30mm Mx103 with 100 rpg
1x BK5 with 22 rpg

3) WINGS
empty
4x WGr.21
2x Drop tanks (not sure about this one -- don't see much reference to it)

4) CENTERLINE
empty
4x 50kg (on shackles that disappear when bombs not loaded)
1x 2x20mm MG151/20 gunpod with 200 rpg (based on other gunpod and bf110G gunpod)



A little of my logic WHY:

1) Since the only main difference between the A and B is the 7mm vs 13mm MGs (seeing they both used the same engines), I would suggest the "main loadout" have both options. No reason, you say? Well in scenarios with timelines or setups with specific timing issues, it might come into play. Or if people want more peashooters to help "walk" rounds to a target and tap the cannons, etc.

2) For the bomb bay, you had guns on "trays" and bombs on "platters" and they would simply be mounted on the bomb bay. That's right, the bombs weren't on racks, they were on a platter that was then inserted. I'm hoping HTC can do this so that you get to choose bombs or guns but not both (as was historic). Naturally it could carry some bombs, but I think we all like the guns options so we need a good choice there as well. I've listed what, IMO, are the more common, more regular, more proven loadouts that we'd actually use in the game.

Example of 2x20mm "tray": http://i5.tinypic.com/499vgcw.jpg
Example of the 4x20mm "tray" load: http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/5691/me410b245wz0.jpg
Example of 2x Mk103 (diagonal muzzles on 103): http://www.cockpitinstrumente.de/archiv/Dokumente/ABC/m/MK%20103/MK%20103/Bilder/Me%20410%20B-2%20U%201/001.jpg

3) The 410 could carry the same WGRs as the 110
2x each wing: http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/3503/me410b2u23om.jpg
However, unlike the 110 I don't think it could carry bombs. It carried these on the centerline. I don't know about drop tanks either, as it apparently had a 1500mi range (might not have been needed?).

4) The belly would be capable of a pod similar to the 110G (but rounded more): http://i10.tinypic.com/2ak9tgg.jpg
It could also carry 4x 50kg bombs on 4 small racks.
2 examples:
http://www.warbirdphotographs.com/LCBW5/Me410-2s.jpg
http://luftwaffefighters.co.uk/410/me410-4.jpg
Naturally the fighter versions would not carry these to hit bombers, but when tasked with bombing something it was clearly one of the options. This does not get in the way of the bomb bay, you'll note, so I've separated it from that weapons list. Because they are mutually exclusive to the mission at hand, I think we can pull "double duty" and have both options on the same selectable plane in the hangar.

I think this gives us maximum coverage from Schnellbomber to Zerstorer. It would be just as useful as a mossie or a p-38 in regards to ground attack AND heavy fighter. You might commonly see the gunpod with the 2x20mm tray, but that doesn't stop you from loading it with the 2x30mm or the 4x20mm trays. You suffer for it with weight and drag, but it lets you customize what you want. And yes, there are accounts of 8x20mm (2 main, 4 tray, 2 gunpod) and witnesses to its use in combat. Yes the missions did carry 2x 30mm and 2x 20mm gunpods sometimes (at least from what I've read they did on night fighter missions) so all these combinations were used.

Edited and updated now, originally from the linked thread above.

[morfiend]

Moot,


 I believe the R3 gunpack contains 2 Mk103's this could be mounted under a BK5 equipped 410!

 You'd have to look carefully to see the muzzle breaks at the wouldn't protrude in front of the nose.

 I'd have to look them all up but the gunpods came with 2x20mm,4x20mm,2xMk103 and 2xMk108,any of which could be mounted under pretty much any of the variants. This would make a 4x30 mm possible!!!

   hope that helps
 

  

[moot]

I think that's somebody getting confused with the 2x mk108 gunpod.... (edit: I know that's a 2x20mm pod in the pictures but I seem to recall mention of a 2x30mm pod as well)

Haven't run into it yet.  I've got the second Petrick book ordered.  Dunno if I'll get the first one anytime soon though, hopefully that's not where the answer to this mystery is hidden.

Definitely NOT the mk103s and the BK at the same time.

I can't see anything fitting with the BK in the bay.  Even the WB151 and MK 103 mounts look like they fill it up.

Wrongway Thanks for the pics and links.  I'd forgotten about that cockpitinstrumente.de website.
I don't understand what you mean:

Anyway, with all the other configurations of gun packages that were carried in the bomb bay, two or four MG151s, two MK108s and, for that matter, just bombs, I don't see why they would necessarily omit the other guns.

If you mean why they'd leave out the "standard" guns (above the bomb bay, let's call em cockpit guns for simplicity's sake), common sense reason could be simply to save weight.  Is that what you mean?

The reason I'm asking the OP question is that I don't really see how you could have BK5 + 20mm + 30mm.   Either:
30mm means MK 108 (short barrel, smaller gun overall) and: they were put in one of those four positions you see above the BK5 in that last face-on pic, or in a pod like the one in my above 3d and 4th pics.
30mm means MK 103 (way bigger, muzzle breaks, etc) and: they'd have to have showed up on some pics (never seen any) or been referred to (never seen that either), or they're in a belly pod. IIRC the 190A-8 or -9 had such pods..  But I don't remember seeing these myself for the 190A, and definitely never seen yet a 103 belly pod for the 410, either in picture or in writing.

[moot]

A minor hijack if I may.

Yep

Do you have any information that the smaller pod may be as you have shown? I have pictures of similar pods on 110 night fighters

Not yet but I don't see why not. Will keep it in mind, thanks.  Do you know what gun's in that Ar 234 pod?

Lyric, I think you lost me. IF I understand correctly: The pictures posted at the top of this thread are 2x MG151/20 gunpods similar to that on the Bf110G and similar to the wing pods for Fw190As.

Yes

Totally different beast, I think.

but I expect you'd need different pod from the MG151 one (might look just as pod-ish, but structure would most likely be different) for 103s.  Important, because where else are you going to put 103s if the bay's occupied?  To answer this one you need to gather as much clear evidence that either supports or eliminates possible explanations. 

You will see that even 2x MG121 pods came in many different sizes.

Yes E.G. the 4x151 bomb bay configuration's referred to as "two WB151A" mounts. 

EDIT: Wrongway: I don't think the "standard guns" were really removed much. It seems they were left in place regardless of the other loadouts. I would think you are right in that they were still there.

Not guaranteed.  I've seen reference to removing "standard" guns and leaving extra guns.  I'll have exact references for this later but take my word for it for now, it's in the books.

Whether they loaded them or not? Considering the terrible reliability of the BK5 I would guess "Yes" so they could press the attack if the gun jammed.

Sounds consistent with mostly negative BK5 anecdotes

My latest request for loadout options for when Aces High gets the Me410...

You may recall a similar thread here: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,299596.msg3840243.html#msg3840243

Edited and updated now, originally from the linked thread above.

Disagree for sensible reasons I'll detail in the main 410 thread.


Hey Morf,

I believe the R3 gunpack contains 2 Mk103's this could be mounted under a BK5 equipped 410!

 You'd have to look carefully to see the muzzle breaks at the wouldn't protrude in front of the nose.

Morf look at the BK5 position as mounted.  Then at the MK 103 bomb bay mount assembly.  You can't fit em both in there.  If you see those muzzle brakes sticking out of the nose, it means they're either in the bay or in the top gun positions (basically at pilots feet).  But you can't have anything added to BK5 in the bomb bay (I'm open to explanations e.g. special dual purpose MK103+BK5 mount in bomb bay, but I've never seen anything even hinting at it), and I've yet to see a single picture where it even sorta looks like there's 103 muzzle brakes in the cockpit gun ports.  I haven't yet gotten down to actually drawing a scaled MK 103 on top of the "cockpit" guns schematic, but that might be a way to rule them out for sure.  The only option left's the most plausible one (IMO): a belly pod.

I'd have to look them all up but the gunpods came with 2x20mm,4x20mm,2xMk103 and 2xMk108,any of which could be mounted under pretty much any of the variants. This would make a 4x30 mm possible!!!

Alright, I'm all ears.

Back to work..

[Krusty]

There's no way you could, and I don't recall ever hearing about a 2x mk103 pod... Not like the wb151, at any rate. You cannot have the muzzle brakes on the Mk103 recessed. They have to stick out, otherwise the gasses expelled would be dangerous. It's very clear whenever a plane has a mk103 installed, as you always see that diagonal muzzle brake.

[moot]

Yeah that's what I meant-  I've never seen anything just barely sticking out from cockpit gun ports like 103 muzzle brakes would need to be to go unnoticed.
The 103 pod for the 190A that I vaguely remember is a single gun pod, one per wing.  But it'd more likely be a double-gun pod for the 410 belly pod position, so maybe two 190A pods stuck together with a new pod shell.  I have no idea how it actually works.

[Krusty]

I honestly think it's a wild goose chase. Not the first time. Those 2 guns take up the entire bomb bay. They didn't put them in ventral gun packs. It's not exactly a compact solution to a lack of firepower. Plus if the BK5 was loaded and the default 20mm/13mm there was already a backup plan (plus the optional ventral WB151).

Doesn't make sense, doesn't add up, no record of it... I think it's a mistake, plain and simple, based on all the above.