Author Topic: Yakovlev Yak-9T + NS37 Cannon  (Read 2529 times)

Offline mtnman

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Re: Yakovlev Yak-9T + NS37 Cannon
« Reply #30 on: March 12, 2011, 11:38:07 AM »
What I was thinking, and I'm at least as much of a layman on this, is that some rounds' shape could be more susceptible to tumble, or something.  I wasn't thinking of it in principle as the discussion has bent towards, but in terms of the difference between NS37 and MK108.  Maybe the 108 had a combo of projectile shape and too little barrel to result in more dispersion.  Or maybe HTC based the difference in dispersion on historical data..

I think your last statement is probably correct.  There's data to support modeling a "generic" dispersion for a given gun.

It's not a "too little barrel" issue.  It really doesn't take much barrel to stabilize a round.  As an example, I have a flintlock dueling pistol with a rifled 10" barrel that shoots three shots into a 1" group at 50 yards.  That's about the max I've tried, due to the sights, but knowing what I do about stability there's no reason to suspect the projectile would lose stability beyond that range.

Tumble---

When it comes to stability, the actual RPM (and its resulting gyroscopic forces) of the rotating projectile is the critical factor (and it's controlled by velocity and rifling).  Let's assume a round is fired at 100yds, out of a barrel that is rifled to cause the projectile to rotate once every 18".  No matter what the velocity of the projectile is, the projectile will rotate twice every three feet traveled, so will rotate 200 times in its 300ft flight.  Now, let's assume one shot is fired at 1000fps, while another shot is fired at 500fps.  In both cases the bullet will spin 200 times before it hits the target, but...  the RPM of the faster-flying bullet is twice that of the slower bullet.  It hits the target quicker, so squeezes those 200 revolutions into a smaller time-period.

When it comes to shape...  You're right, some shapes are more prone to tumbling, which is why the RPM is adjusted through velocity and rifling.  The most stable shape for a projectile is a ball.  It can be stabilized at slow velocity and with a slow rate of twist.  As an example, my .54 muzzle-loader only uses a 1-70" rate of twist (the ball rotates once in 70" of travel), and doesn't require a high velocity to stabilize the ball.  However, a ball is a terrible shape to resist drag and maintain velocity because it presents to much frontal (and rear) area to the slipstream, making it a very high-drag shape.

To decrease drag, bullets are elongated to present less frontal area with a similar (or even greater) mass.  The problem with that is that as a projectile gets longer in relation to its diameter it gets less stable (more likely to tumble).  This longer bullet will require a higher RPM to stabilize.  That can be done by either increasing the rate of rifling twist in the barrel, or by increasing the velocity (more powder, or a different powder, or both) or by increasing both.

To make it more complicated, the overall diameter of the projectile dictates the required RPM as well (i.e a .32 round ball needs to spin faster than a .54 round ball to remain stable.  Same shape, but a different RPM requirement).  A smaller diameter projectile needs a faster rate-of twist.

Compare those numbers to modern center-fire barrels which generally have rifling between 1-10" and 1-14", and often a much higher velocity as well (resulting in a much higher RPM.

What this eventually leads to is a "best" round for a given barrel.  A round that delivers the proper velocity to result in the proper RPM for that bullet, out of that barrel.

Vibration-

This can actually lead to a lot of "dispersion", even without any "outside" influence from the engine, etc.  When a gun is fired, it creates vibration in the barrel.  This vibration will alter depending on the bullet weight and powder charge, among other things.  This vibration leads to the muzzle vibrating.  Imagine the muzzle vibrating left/right or up/down, or a combination of both.  The timing of when the projectile leaves the muzzle is at play here.  If the rounds leave while the muzzle is in vibratory transit from left to right, you'll get more dispersion.  If the timing is "perfect" and the round leaves when the muzzle momentarily pauses at the right or left before reversing direction, you'll get less dispersion.  It sounds crazy, but explains why one brand of factory-spec ammo will fire large, ineffective groups out of a barrel, while a different brand will fire much tighter groups.  The "sound" is different, resulting in a differetn vibration, and a different time-of-exit for the projectile.  Even changing the projectile within the same brand matters (or can).

And in the end, it means that once a "best" round is found, other rounds fired out of the same barrel aren't as good.  This is one reason why tracer rounds may not fly like non-tracer rounds, etc...  It also means that less-stringent tolerances results in greater dispersion (or can).  Maybe two rounds have precisely the same amount of powder, and precisely-matched bullets.  What if the composition of the powder isn't identical?  Or what if one bullet has an off-center air bubble within it?  What if two barrels are made by two different manufacturer's (or by the same one) and aren't exactly identical?  Do they fire the same bullet to the same place?  Not usually...

Range-

The RPM of the projectile doesn't slow at anywhere near the rate that the overall velocity of the round slows.  That means that the projectile doesn't lose stability as quickly as it loses effectiveness.  When it loses 1/2 of its forward speed, it has not lost 1/2 of its stability.

All those things, and more, contribute to dispersal.  Most are "nit-picky" for airplane guns, so probably weren't really worried about (and probably still aren't) which just leads to more dispersal in the end...
« Last Edit: March 12, 2011, 11:42:39 AM by mtnman »
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Offline moot

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Re: Yakovlev Yak-9T + NS37 Cannon
« Reply #31 on: March 12, 2011, 12:23:22 PM »
Thanks MtnMan.  Especially the bit about charges' sound.  That makes a lot of sense, I'd never thought of it.
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Offline bustr

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Re: Yakovlev Yak-9T + NS37 Cannon
« Reply #32 on: March 13, 2011, 06:09:18 PM »
I'm not sure many associated with this game have seen the document linked below.

The MK108 had a 1:16 twist in a 23inch barrel to impart a high rate of spin to unlock the fuse on a 150mm long round. Yes a 3cm ball vs 150mmx3cm would be very stable from a 23inch barrel 1:16 at 500m/sec.

Page 11 shows a parabolic dispersion curve. Values are meters in radius. Tests from a bench, not a moving aircraft. If those values are the average spiraling corkscrew path of the MK108 round from a test bench, you cannot hit much of anything past 25-50 meters very often in G force affected flight manuvering. 100 foot wingspan level slow moving bombers past 50 meters possibly?

On page 10 is also data from a MK103 which might infer an aproximation of how the NS-37 HE round at 860M/sec might perform. MK108 data at 500m/sec is on page 10.

http://deutscheluftwaffe.de/archiv/Dokumente/ABC/m/MK%20108/Text/Munition/Daten%20Bleatter/Datenbleatter.pdf

Good explanation of how the centrifugal fuze works.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~robdebie/me163/weapons15.htm

The AZ1587 throws a single ball bering to one side off center to unlock the fuze. A possibility of wabble?. The ZZ1589 uses multiple ball berings.

If you look at this description for a practice round, how many real rounds had the same problem due to natural instabilities during combat.

Type G, German name: unknown

Tar-filled practice mineshell with an unbalance stick for short range. Pressed and rolled steel body with an steel dummy fuze and an steel unbalance stick. The unbalance stick is bent outward on the top causing the shell to fall into unbalance shortly after leaving the barrel and thereby greatly reducing the range of the shell. Weight of shell: appr. 330 +/- 8 grams. Shell probably of experimental design.


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Offline Ghosth

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Re: Yakovlev Yak-9T + NS37 Cannon
« Reply #33 on: March 14, 2011, 06:52:21 AM »
I have not seen it said in this thread, and only HT/Pyro could say for absolute certainty.

But I suspect the difference buster is seeing in hits doing major damage is that the N-37 is loaded with a significant portion of AP ammo. Where the 30mm is all HE.

That is in my opinion why the Yak9T and the iL2 do so well against ground targets.
And can seem to do not as well vs air targets.

So some of those hits with the 37mm are punching right through, not exploding.

Offline Lusche

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Re: Yakovlev Yak-9T + NS37 Cannon
« Reply #34 on: March 14, 2011, 07:17:17 AM »
But I suspect the difference buster is seeing in hits doing major damage is that the N-37 is loaded with a significant portion of AP ammo. Where the 30mm is all HE.

That is in my opinion why the Yak9T and the iL2 do so well against ground targets.
And can seem to do not as well vs air targets.


The YakT has entirely different ammo in game than the IL 2 - That's why it's actually doing much worse against armored ground targets. With an IL-2, a few hits vs top armor will take out a Tiger, a yak-t can shoot away all day even with hundreds of rounds (tested offline via ammo multiplier)
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Offline MORAY37

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Re: Yakovlev Yak-9T + NS37 Cannon
« Reply #35 on: March 14, 2011, 12:54:26 PM »
I have not seen it said in this thread, and only HT/Pyro could say for absolute certainty.

But I suspect the difference buster is seeing in hits doing major damage is that the N-37 is loaded with a significant portion of AP ammo. Where the 30mm is all HE.

That is in my opinion why the Yak9T and the iL2 do so well against ground targets.
And can seem to do not as well vs air targets.

So some of those hits with the 37mm are punching right through, not exploding.

HUH?  Yak9T NS-37 is HE only. And it's absolutely horrible with GV's other than soft skins.
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Offline bustr

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Re: Yakovlev Yak-9T + NS37 Cannon
« Reply #36 on: March 14, 2011, 03:33:23 PM »
Would any of this audience like to comment on the page 11 parabolic dispersion curve for the MK108?

http://deutscheluftwaffe.de/archiv/Dokumente/ABC/m/MK%20108/Text/Munition/Daten%20Bleatter/Datenbleatter.pdf

If this dispersion chart is correct, our MK108 shoots like a slow lazer or the M4/37 in our P39Q which has aproximently a 6ft barrel 1:16 twist and initial velocity of 610M/sec. The NS-37 barrel is 7.8ft 1:16 twist, 870-900M/sec.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NS-37
The two basic types of projectiles were:

OFZ, High Explosive Incendiary, weight 735 grams, muzzle speed 890 mps.
BT, Armor piercing with tracer, 753 grams. Ballistic cap, without any kind of incendiary or explosive filling. Muzzle velocity 870 m/s.

Penetration 48 mm high strenght steel at 300 meters ( 20 º angle)

Testing with the OFZ showed it could explosively "shatter" 18mm rolled plate steel. It's not punching holes in aircraft. If it hits the aircraft, it should fall apart the same way our manned ack gun performs a one shot kill. We don't have the earlier german tank versions with thinner armor in the game which the Lagg3 with the Shpitalny Sh-37 could defeat. At the Battel of Stalingrad Lagg3 escorted by Yak were effective bomber killers. The rounds used in the Sh-37 are the same as the NS-37. Our german half track, M8, M3, LVT and jeep are vulnerable to the OFZ round. Our aluminum skinned aircraft in the game seem to be coated with "OFZ Begon".........

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Offline Yeager

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Re: Yakovlev Yak-9T + NS37 Cannon
« Reply #37 on: March 15, 2011, 10:24:37 AM »
I love attacking wirbs and ostis in my Yak9T weaving in and out of trees.  Most AAA peeps never study that little area between the treetops and the ground  :)
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Offline icepac

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Re: Yakovlev Yak-9T + NS37 Cannon
« Reply #38 on: March 18, 2011, 09:59:42 AM »
Barrel length is matched with the burning speed of the cartridge to get the most out of it.


Offline bustr

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Re: Yakovlev Yak-9T + NS37 Cannon
« Reply #39 on: March 18, 2011, 05:13:44 PM »
icepac,

Unfortunatly the short barrel length in the case of the MK108 was not matched to the powder. It was so that max pressure was never reached helping with the low recoil while getting just enough spin induced to unlock the fuse. Unlike the NS-37's recoil by the third round fired raising the nose of the Yak9T off target, the MK108 had relatively littel influence on the attiude of the aircraft.

The document I posted is from Rheinmetall-Borsig's testing of their gun and ammunition. Page 11 of the document shows a parabolic dispersion graph that never shows up in the Rechlin Erprobungsstelle Bordwaffen document most players on the internet can download freely. You can search around for a free download of Borwaffenmunition.pdf. The MK108 in game looks like it uses the ballistic data table from this document.

The Rechlin document is a compilation of manufacters testing documents. You will notice on page 35 for the MK108 500M/sec data Rechlin only includes a column for "Strich" with the "Sütterlin" capitol letter D for dispersion. If you were Rechlin and wanted the explosive power and low recoil of the MK108 but had to sell Berlin on the gun with a short effective range and crappy dispersion value, which value would you sell as the dispersion at 100 meters?

Rheinmetall-Borsig's - A 6 inch drop and roughly anywhere in a 28 foot circle at 100 meters due to parabolic dispersion.

Rechlin E'stelle -  A 6 inch drop with a 7 foot dispersion at 100 meters.

Now if anyone on this forum can determin another meaning for the page 11 parabolic dispersion graph data please do so.
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This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.