yak vs f4u-spiral climb

[df54]

   

   am i missing something. my understanding is that at such a low speed the torque effect would roll the f4u hard left yet bandit is still able to aim. what is going on here. since i am turning right there is no way the f4u could pull enough lead for a kill shot.     


 http://www.mediafire.com/?pcoptghx2g5nq02

[BillyD]

The Corsair has amazing low speed handling  ( some say over modeled in game but thats neither here nor there )....he dropped enough flaps to hang up there...you would have to have pulled more of a flat turn at the top to rope him out. 

[mtnman]

It looks like he just managed to hit you as he stalled.  Before that, he was still above stall speed so I'd expect him to be able to maneuver a bit (I find I need a minimum of @ 125mph to have much control in the F4U).

The F4U doesn't stall until around 78mph.  The film I've seen of real F4U stalls doesn't show them rolling left until they stall.  As your film ends, his nose is coming down and his left wing is dropping.

Also, although your film clip is only 16 seconds long, it still begins with him 70mph faster than you.  At 240mph, he's high enough above his stall speed to be able to maneuver.  And, actually, had he kept his flaps in I think he could have done even better...  Having his nose up and dropping flaps really slowed him down quick!

[Saxman]

The F4U doesn't stall until around 78mph.  The film I've seen of real F4U stalls doesn't show them rolling left until they stall.

Funny how many people ignore this and automatically assume the Corsair is supposed to spin under any low-speed maneuver.

[TequilaChaser]

( I have not seen the film )

Also, if the player in the F4U knows anything about his aircraft's characteristics ( The F4U series ), he knows to back off on the throttle slightly in a right hand turn to negate any opposing torque effect, which will let the F4U turn even better to the right

hope this helps

TC

[FLS]

I'm not sure that's a good idea in this case TC. I didn't see the film either but the description is a climb to a shot at stall speed. Reducing torque with a power reduction  will have an adverse effect on climb rate and getting the nose up for a shot.

[TequilaChaser]

Well, I guess I need to watch the film df54 provided. to see if what I posted applys directly to his scenario

Df54 posted the following:

my understanding is that at such a low speed the torque effect would roll the f4u hard left yet bandit is still able to aim.

yes once the F4U gets slow enough that it finally stalls out ( in a straight line of flight ) it should dip the left wing, roll left

but Df54 also posted:

what is going on here. since i am turning right there is no way the f4u could pull enough lead for a kill shot.     

this is where my earlier post applies. If flying the F4U series planes, once you drop say below 150 IAS (white needle) and you are in a right hand turn, regardless if you are defending or attacking, If you would back off on your throttle from WOT ( or even WOT w/WEP ) to some where between WOT down to around 70% throttle, you can increase / better your turn rate.
(note: each situation is different, and where to move to/control the throttle lowered settings will vary depending on different scenarios )
 
When turning right even in a climbing right hand turn in the F4U series planes, if you are wide open throttle and are slower than 150 IAS you are actually making your turn rate worse / taking longer and more distance to turn, than you would if you just backed off on the throttle until you feel the F4U equalize it's Torque effect.....

you can actually feel /see the response on the monitor when you are slow and turning right at WOT in the F4U... keep turning right and while doing so, start backing of the throttle slowly until you actually see the turnrate start to gain more....

the fact that it is a right hand climbing turn would not even bother "me personally"...... because I have studied and learned everything I could about my F4U...... I would know to back off on the throttle in a right hand turn / right hand climbing turn

I posted that last statement to be read a certian way......... it means one should study and learn everything they can about both the plane they are flying as well as the plane they are flying against...... In Aces High... do not use real life plane information...... study Aces high plane/vehicle information about your current ride and apply/compare it against other Aces High plane/vehicle information you fly against to not be misled into believing a false analogy.......

abbreviations:
IAS = Indicated Air SPeed

WOT = Wide Open Throttle

WEP = War Emergency Power


hope I helped explain my first post more thoroughly,  and hope this post is helpful

<S>

TC

[Soulyss]

I took a look at the film and here's my take, I welcome TC or anyone else to comment on it.

The F4U doesn't follow your flight path, instead he pulls inside your turn, actually rolls left with the torque then pitches up and with a little right aileron and rudder get's a couple hits, which with a F4U-1C is sometimes all you need.  At the time of the shot DF59's speed is a little around 123 and the F4U's is around 71 (film viewer shows TAS I think).  I can see how he could have maintained control if he worked the throttle as TC describes, at those speeds not much lead is required.

It was tough to get a decent shot showing what I'm talking about but I gave it a go.


Doesn't show the early turn well but does show the left roll (with torque).

[FLS]

I won't argue with you TC, I hardly fly the F4U. I will watch the film when I get home just because I'm curious now.
 
I don't understand 'equalizing torque.' That implies opposing forces to me. Torque is trimmed out.  I take your point about turning with reduced power to avoid torquing off. I didn't think it was worth the loss of thrust and I'm sure I should look into it more.

[Soulyss]

I won't argue with you TC, I hardly fly the F4U. I will watch the film when I get home just because I'm curious now.
 
I don't understand 'equalizing torque.' That implies opposing forces to me. Torque is trimmed out.  I take your point about turning with reduced power to avoid torquing off. I didn't think it was worth the loss of thrust and I'm sure I should look into it more.

I guess for me the question is, at the speeds we're talking about how much alt are you going to get either way?  If you're down around 100mph full power vs say 70% going straight up either way you're not climbing much higher and I think maintaining control would typically be of greater importance.

[FLS]

Like TC I was just commenting on the comments. I haven't seen the film yet and didn't think anyone was going straight up.  A zoom climb would certainly be a different situation from a climbing turn.

Edit: Watched the film. Mtnman explained it.  I agree that he slowed down too much but I think he needed flaps to get his nose up, 3 notches may have been enough but he went full flaps. He was flying straight when he fired ( Soulyss is that what you meant by straight up?) and when he turned a little he stalled and dropped his nose. I don't think he torque rolled, he was just too slow to bank and fly.

[TequilaChaser]

I don't understand 'equalizing torque.' That implies opposing forces to me. Torque is trimmed out.  I take your point about turning with reduced power to avoid torquing off. I didn't think it was worth the loss of thrust and I'm sure I should look into it more.

my use of "equalizing torque effect" may have been the wrong choice of words, the way I used it..... one wants to be able to maintain the most thrust they can but at the same time one will want the most controlability of their F4U when turning right at slower speeds ( even including all the way down to Stall Speed )
So maybe it is only the throttle lowered to something like 98% or 92% or 87%..... it is  very small increments  only enough to accomplish  or to acquire a more preferred turnrate while turning to the right.... it is not any set Throttle setting like 90%/80%/70%/60% etc.....

yes you most definitely want to get the most thrust/power from your F4U as possible, wide open throttle is always preferred, but in some instances, as mentioned.....slightly backing the throttle down and lowering the thrust will actually let one gain more turnability ...

your post:

turning with reduced power to avoid torquing off

  or in our other discussion you mentioned

the spiral slipstream

the above words "avoiding torque roll off" and "spiral slipstream", may indeed be the words I am thinking of, rather than reducing throttle to equalize the Torque roll effect

now when you mentioned that "Torque is Trimmed Out"...... yes to a degree it is perhaps..but not completely... at least I do not think it is completely trimmed out, and if one is using CT ( Combat Trim ) and flying at slower than best sustained turnrate speeds and using flaps all together, actually hinder the F4U flyer more so than help them.... 

thanks FLS, for questioning my use of the "equalizing torque effect", I surely do not want to mis inform anyone, and my apologies if I used those words in the wrong context

hope this helps

<S>

TC

now: if we can could just provide some positive information for df54.... for how to go about using his Yak verses the F4U

[FLS]

I didn't mean to nitpick TC. I'm sure we agree that you oppose the torque with aileron and rudder whether it's trimmed out or it's the controller position and reducing throttle reduces the torque.

It's difficult to accurately judge E states and I think that's what happened with df54. The F4U did stall but it made the shot before stalling. As Mtnman pointed out the F4u might have delayed stalling with less use of flaps and gotten more hits.

[mtnman]

now: if we can could just provide some positive information for df54.... for how to go about using his Yak verses the F4U

I was thinking along these lines too, but with such a tiny clip, it's hard to know what was really going on, and what led to the situation we see.  It looks to me like the spiral climb was a poor tactical move for that situation, but again, I don't have enough information.  And of course, he's in a 2v1, so that takes things away from a simple Yak vs F4U discussion.

And he apparently hasn't been back, or at least hasn't responded, so maybe he was griping more than really looking for an answer (or isn't getting the answer he expected)?