Arena cap is getting out of hand

[Reaper90]

Nope, it's exactly the same thing.  If I wanted to fly LW hotrod planes, was in Orange, but all I saw was the tuff-boi pissing contests and crap-flinging, I'd switch to Blue to see if it was any better.  If there was only one LW arena, and I was subjected to that crap, I'd have never subscribed.

I feel your pain [/Clinton voice] and am glad there are 2 LW arenas. I just wish they were always capped at 850, like on TT, so that we wouldn't be forced into the "other" arena if we didn't want to be. Anyone who's sensitivity level is high enough that they cannot tolerate the "cess pool" that people keep talking about (I haven't actually seen it, but I guess that's because of such things as .squelch and .report and detuning 200) can freely choose to leave. Those who want to fly where they want to fly can stay in the "cess pool" with their squaddies.

[Tigger29]

I am almost fine with the way the caps are now.  Like HiTech has said many times, just fly one 30min mission in blue and chances are there will be an opening in orange when you are done. If not then just log in and out a few times if the cap is close enough to the number of people in the arena, if not then just fly in blue and get over yourself.  In the off chance that you only have 30min to play anyway, why are you logging on in the first place? Why are we even talking about the arena split? The OP was about the caps, which I find no fault with and am kind of glad that they are in place.

In a way I agree with this.  I think the caps in place the way they are now is the best that can be done without making special rules for squads... because any further changes to it will break squads apart.  I'm just afraid that things may get too complicated.

On the other hand, I too have gotten aggravated over being 'locked out' of the arena the rest of my squad is in.  Usually it's a matter of clinking on ONLINE QUIT ONLINE QUIT ONLINE QUIT ONLINE QUIT for dozens of minutes until there are openings available to fly with them.  If an automated system was in place (to let me know when there is an opening) I would gladly join the other arena and fly around until that time, but you just can't do that as is.  Also maybe if the arena list updated itself every few seconds that might help too.

I too have joined the other arena and asked my squad to switch over.  Every time that simply falls on deaf ears.  We did switch arenas for a week once and we had a BLAST and there were never problems getting in, but for some reason it migrated back over again.  It totally blows my mind how that works out but it always does!  Something tells me this happens to all squads.

Anyway the problem is that everyone wants to join the first arena on the list.  Then it gets more players and everyone wants to join the arena with more players.  So if you randomize which arena is listed first, and if you take away the part that shows how many people are in each of the late war arenas (maybe replace it with vacancy/no vacancy) then that *might* help to even out the numbers, however the problem with getting in to fly with your squad could still remain.

HiTech, if you wanted to make a change without making major modifications to how it works then I would propose the following:
1> Remove the numbers next to the late war arena listings... maybe replace it with a red or green light instead
2> Make the order of the late war arenas show up randomly on everyone's list... (Example on my computer it might show blue on top, on yours it might show orange on top) or if not random, then have the less populated arena appear first
3> Automatically disconnect anyone that shows no activity for over 20 minutes (sitting in the tower, not in flight).  Many people will log on and just sit there in the tower for hours to reserve a spot for that evening.

In addition, I'd like to see this:
4> If your connection gets dropped, a placeholder keeps you a spot open in the arena for a couple of minutes so you can get back in even if the arena is full.  You'd still be 'killed' but at least you can come back to the arena.
5> Some way to join a full arena to fly with your squad... -OR- some kind of system that holds a place for you so you can do so once the arena has slots open.
6> Some way to refresh the arena list without quitting and coming back in would be nice too.

[Hector]

I don't believe I have ever said or insinuated this. Other people have many times though.

HiTech

Thanks for setting me straight boss.

[SunBat]

When economics change different metrics change. As an example when the economy is bad, more people who have not played in 2 months will decide that they can not afford to keep the account open when they are not playing much anymore. When the economy is good more people will make the choice not to close thinking they may play again in a few weeks.

People see the split and think I wish we had 1 arena. What they do not correlate and see is the benefits of having the split arena,they just believe things will be the same if we have more people in one arena. People do see the down side of a split arena, like not being able to play with their squad.

HiTech

I'm sure that's true and I agree the metrics would show just that. However, for the very same reasons one would think that people would be more likely to sign up or give their kid the money when the economy is good and they have more disposable income. While I agree that $15 a months is dirt cheap, through the years of reading these boards and knowing squadies situations, money truly is a reason why ppl do and don't play. Remember, while the basic game is cheap, you have to have an Internet connection first. This is a much larger expense and to have quality game play u have to have a decent connection. Also, while the game can be played on a lower end machine it's not ideal, but let's throw that out bc it can be played halfway decently. But playing with a mouse sucks and everyone knows it so they eventually get a joystick. Then it is ideal to get headphones and a mic and on and on... 

I'm sorry, money has to be a factor. And whenever money is a factor, the economy is a factor.

Also, if the split arenas were the factor for improving the numbers, why did the numbers decline while the arenas were still split?  There has to be more to it.

The funny thing is, I'm not campaigning for anything here. While I don't love the split arenas, I actually don't like TT because of the lag and crap that happens. I just think there has to be more to it than the split. If I were to campaign for anything, it would be to get rid of the off-hours arena because it really does break the momentum on a good night of AH. But even that is not that big of a deal really.

[muzik]

Speaking for myself, I did not "merely" dismiss your numbers as coincidence. I suggested that it may be the case. I am sure I dont need to tell you, anyone with even a mediocre grasp of statistics would agree that a single incidence or even the months of good numbers you got after the split is not proof of success. Have you gone back to the single arena since; and did you lose customers as a result? And then change back to the split and see regrowth? If not then you dont have anything other than coincidence. When you've tested your theory several times and gotten the same result, that is when any educated minds begin to call them facts! Obviously you cant chase off customers indiscriminately, but there are certainly plenty of ideas floating out there that could be used to get some real statistics.

When economics change different metrics change. As an example when the economy is bad, more people who have not played in 2 months will decide that they can not afford to keep the account open when they are not playing much anymore. When the economy is good more people will make the choice not to close thinking they may play again in a few weeks.

People see the split and think I wish we had 1 arena. What they do not correlate and see is the benefits of having the split arena,they just believe things will be the same if we have more people in one arena. People do see the down side of a split arena, like not being able to play with their squad.

HiTech

Which is exactly why your "how many customers canceled or how many joined again" statistic has no bearing! And as someone else here pointed out, that can go both ways. I know, because I spend more time subscribed when Im not working than when I am.

The reason we dont see the benefits is because there are none! I have never seen so much complaining as I have since the split. And not just about the split. About all kinds of things. My god, have you even looked at fugitives thread. I think he is a minority, but he is not the only one who complains about such things. I guess you are going to say thats because of the growing subscriptions. Maybe it's because there are too many people in the arenas, split or not, and the things that cause the specific problems are not dealt with.

You know I just thought of something. If your customers subconsciously (since we arent smart enough to know what we like) dont like the massive single arenas then that must show up in your statistics. At the very least they would show lower logged time in single LW arena because they would be fed up with unhealthiness of the cesspool.

Statistics you didnt mention in your list should make it pretty clear what people like and dislike, like these...

How many players play every day?
How many of those players avoid titanic tuesday or single LW before change over?
How many players play on a regular schedule?
Is that because of work and family schedule?
How many of those schedules avoid single arenas?
Is that because of work and family schedule?
How many players who play on a weekly basis avoid single arenas?
How many players never sign into single arenas?
Of all players who seem to log into single arenas less overall, how do their split arena login times compare to the login times in single?

Im sure there's a few more that should go in there as well, but those statistics wont lie. Because if you're right, then anyone who has an aversion to the cesspool will avoid it "subconsciously."

Apparently we wont ever agree. You can say easy enough that we "dont see the benefits of the single arena" but I would say that avoiding a customer poll of the subject is really flying blind! I am not mad at you except when you mute me because of ankle... well you know! But we are pretty frustrated with this.

Really, if you have such a problem with new people unknowingly coming into the game unprepared for the level of competition and aggression in the game why dont you prepare them? If it was me I would put a notice on the home page...

CAUTION: THIS GAME INVOLVES AN EXTREMELY HIGH LEVEL OF COMPETITION AND EXPERTISE. YOU WILL GET YOUR bellybutton KICKED REPEATEDLY AND SOMETIMES HUMILIATED. WE TRY TO CONTROL IT AND HAVE MEASURES IN PLACE FOR REPORTING ABUSIVE BEHAVIOR, BUT THERE IS AN EXCESSIVE AMOUNT OF TESTOSTERONE REQUIRED TO SURVIVE THIS GAME AND IT CANNOT BE CONTROLED 100% OF THE TIME. IF YOU DO NOT HAVE THE STOMACH FOR SUCH THINGS, WE SUGGEST YOU SPEND YOUR TIME ON CHECKERS!





  

[moot]

Hey Muzik.  How many flight sims have you made?

[TheDudeDVant]

2nd the thought process of product design by polling is one very very very bad idea.

http://blogmaverick.com/2010/04/06/why-you-should-never-listen-to-your-customers/



HiTech

So, in this thread you already told us we're not smart enough to know what we want. Thx btw. This link you posted is the reason you wont place the single ma to a poll/vote?

[The Fugitive]

I don't think a customer poll is going to tell you anything. If the results are published people with either NOT believe them, or push for some stupid change that the majority thinks is a good plan. We already know the customers can't pick the right thing, look at the B29 fiasco!  If the results are not published there would be those in here crying about a cover-up. Hitech has enough trouble "proving" things now with out opening his private info, that would just lead to more stupidity.

Personally I happy to go with a little faith that Hitech's giving us the strait skinny. Over the years I haven't seen him make too many mis-steps with this game. I applauded the spilt arenas. To me it looked like the game was going down hill with far to much smack talking and hordes avoiding each other. When the split first happened things settled down. The "mega squads" pretty much disappeared and smaller squads where fighting. Unfortunately it didn't last long. HT took away one "easy way" of playing and they looked for another. Bring in the NOE era.

That first week or two after Hitech slammed the dar levels down was the most fun I had had in a long time! Hitech relented, and while the NOEs haven't gotten as bad as they were before they are still the main idea of most plans now, AVOIDANCE. The numbers have gone up in the split arenas, and the hordes are back in full force. Funny thing, I like playing in the "off-hours" arena. good fights all over, fun people to fly with, not to many "attitudes" clogging up 200. I won't fly on TT,because it the worst for poor game play and attitudes, and the "split" arenas are getting to be almost as bad. I guess those late night Euro guys are just more laid back 

I don't think the Caps are a problem other than guys getting to fly with their squads. If some coad can be worked out to allow squads to fly together while still maintaining a balance I think it would help a lot. I wish Hitech could do something about the hordes (go back to all small maps, and have 3 LW arenas with caps, as long as the squad issue can be worked out). I trust Hitech to do what best for HIS company. If in the end I don't like the product, I'll leave. But so far, he's still got my paltry $15 a month 

[Reaper90]

Keep the LW arenas split, and uncap them both. Everybody gets what they want. Problem solved.

<------ squealing genius.

 

Edit - LOL at text filter. "squealing?"   

[hitech]

I'm sorry, money has to be a factor. And whenever money is a factor, the economy is a factor.

Also, if the split arenas were the factor for improving the numbers, why did the numbers decline while the arenas were still split?  There has to be more to it.

Yes economy is always a factor, but my point was not to show you all the data , nor describe why we believe it was not the economy that cause the change , my point is that arena splits and economy show up very differently in metrics. And our interpretation of all our data is the split caused a major change that started increasing our size.

There has to be more to it.

There has to be more to what?

HiTech

[Delirium]

Hitech, I'd cut everyone some slack. They aren't making all these suggestions not because they want to make your life hell, they are doing it because they really want to see the game thrive.

That said, continue with the normally scheduled discussion.   

[hitech]

So, in this thread you already told us we're not smart enough to know what we want. Thx btw. This link you posted is the reason you wont place the single ma to a poll/vote?

We stumbled on that article about 3 months ago, it just states the issues fairly well. Long before I saw that article I was saying give the customer what he wants, not what he ask for, because they are rarely the same thing.

HiTech

[AWwrgwy]

The arena split did occur during a peak in the US economy and the numbers have declined with the slowdown in the economy.  With all due respect, could this be the elephant in the room rather than the actual arena split?  The thing that is strange to me is the fact that very few, active players who have enough guts to speak up about anything do not prefer the arena split (sycophants excluded) .  How can this silent majority of players that flocked to AH after the split be so silent?  Also, how did they know that the arena was split and thereby were attracted?  Honestly, the pieces don’t all fit together.

The silent majority that flocked to AH after the split don't know any better and don't know any different.

If a split arena/can't play where they want were so bad, they would quit, wouldn't they? The numbers of people trying a 2-week trial versus subscribing would show this. The number of people no longer subscribing since the split, IE they quit since the split, would show this.

Apparently the numbers are not showing this.

Hitech, I'd cut everyone some slack. They aren't making all these suggestions not because they want to make your life hell, they are doing it because they really want to see the game thrive.

That said, continue with the normally scheduled discussion.   

Thrive by going back to a model that the developer has data showing a lack of growth.

Not thriving.


wrongway

[TheDudeDVant]

We stumbled on that article about 3 months ago, it just states the issues fairly well. Long before I saw that article I was saying give the customer what he wants, not what he ask for, because they are rarely the same thing.

HiTech

I can dig that but polling/ surveys are and will remain the best way to interpret what your base desires. The data from your base and of course the interpretation from you. It never hurts to ask the questions. Thx for taking part of this discussion.

[muzik]

So, in this thread you already told us we're not smart enough to know what we want. Thx btw. This link you posted is the reason you wont place the single ma to a poll/vote?

OMG this is why we hear "customers dont know what they want?" He doesnt even give any facts to support his opinion or include the names of the businesses that supposedly failed because they listened to their customers. Doesnt the fact that his theory flys in the face of a long time anecdote "the customer is always right" raise questions? And how about the polling and consumer data companies that make millions every year finding out what people want through polls? Not that politicians dont waste money anyhow, but do you really think they spend thousands of their own money figuring out what hair color voters want to see for nothing?

These people seem to disagree.

http://www.crf-usa.org/election-central/public-opinion-polls.html