Author Topic: Japan Earthquake News  (Read 11950 times)

Offline warhed

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Re: Japan Earthquake News
« Reply #420 on: March 30, 2011, 08:16:01 PM »
I think it's because uranium and plutonium are F-O-R-E-V-E-R and fly-ash, coal mine explosions, mountain tops torn apart and mercury poisoning isn't.

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Sun


Well that would be true if it wasn't 100% false.  Spent fuel only needs a new hundred years or less before it is as radioactive as topsoil.  A few decades (most spent fuel is already over 10 years old) at the most would make it much safer for storage.

The pollution from coal, and physical effect on coal however, is pretty permanent.

Proof?  Search for the word "half-life" in a dictionary.  And then learn the various values of half-lives of your waste.  Then do the math to find out long it would take to be at or below background (natural) radiation levels.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2011, 08:18:14 PM by warhed »
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Offline skorpion

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Re: Japan Earthquake News
« Reply #421 on: March 30, 2011, 08:20:21 PM »
Well that would be true if it wasn't 100% false.  Spent fuel only needs a new hundred years or less before it is as radioactive as topsoil.  A few decades (most spent fuel is already over 10 years old) at the most would make it much safer for storage.

The pollution from coal, and physical effect on coal however, is pretty permanent.

Proof?  Search for the word "half-life" in a dictionary.  And then learn the various values of half-lives of your waste.  Then do the math to find out long it would take to be at or below background (natural) radiation levels.
dont they use that half-life crap in carbon-14 dating? also if you did the math it would be some insane number too big to fit on a calculator.

Offline warhed

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Re: Japan Earthquake News
« Reply #422 on: March 30, 2011, 08:28:27 PM »
dont they use that half-life crap in carbon-14 dating? also if you did the math it would be some insane number too big to fit on a calculator.

Some radioactive waste has a half life of minutes, some hours, some days, some years, some more.
Some plutonium has a half-life of 80 years, some 20,000.  Not one single radioactive element stays radioactive forever.  
Top soil has a half-life, so does the potassium in bananas.
Spent fuel only need a few decades to a few hundred years until the soil around it, is more radioactive (not because of the fuel, because of the naturally occuring radioactive elements in the soil).
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Offline Sundowner

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Re: Japan Earthquake News
« Reply #423 on: March 30, 2011, 08:50:56 PM »
Well that would be true if it wasn't 100% false.  Spent fuel only needs a new hundred years or less before it is as radioactive as topsoil.  A few decades (most spent fuel is already over 10 years old) at the most would make it much safer for storage.

The pollution from coal, and physical effect on coal however, is pretty permanent.

Proof?  Search for the word "half-life" in a dictionary.  And then learn the various values of half-lives of your waste.  Then do the math to find out long it would take to be at or below background (natural) radiation levels.

That would be almost reasonable if the spent fuel rods in the holding pools were the only concern...at least one containment breach is now admitted by TEPCO.

The radiologicals flowing from that breached core makes the threat from the spent fuel rod pools almost laughably insignificant..wouldn't  you agree?

How about THOSE half-lifes?

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Offline Sundowner

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Re: Japan Earthquake News
« Reply #424 on: March 30, 2011, 08:56:48 PM »
Some radioactive waste has a half life of minutes, some hours, some days, some years, some more.
Some plutonium has a half-life of 80 years, some 20,000.  Not one single radioactive element stays radioactive forever.

Just so you know, IMHO a 20,000 years half life is close enough to forever for me and coincidentally my children...my grand children,my great, great grand children, my...well,I think you see my point.

Regards,
Sun


Edited to make sence with the grand children prop.  :D
« Last Edit: March 30, 2011, 09:05:20 PM by Sundowner »
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Offline warhed

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Re: Japan Earthquake News
« Reply #425 on: March 30, 2011, 09:02:58 PM »
Just so you know, IMHO a 20,000 years half life is close enough to forever for me and coincidentally my children...great grand children..my great,my great grandchildren..my great, great great...well,I think you see my point.

Regards,
Sun


Do you know bananas, potassium, cigarettes, human bodies, to name a few, are all radioactive?
It would not take 20,000 before the substance was as radioactive as normal topsoil.  Throw the tens of thousand year figures out the window, unless you want to live in an absolute zero radiation world.  Which would be impossible seeing as how you get a dose from your own body.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2011, 09:04:32 PM by warhed »
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Offline Sundowner

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Re: Japan Earthquake News
« Reply #426 on: March 30, 2011, 09:25:16 PM »
Do you know bananas, potassium, cigarettes, human bodies, to name a few, are all radioactive?
It would not take 20,000 before the substance was as radioactive as normal topsoil.  Throw the tens of thousand year figures out the window, unless you want to live in an absolute zero radiation world.  Which would be impossible seeing as how you get a dose from your own body.

"A banana equivalent dose (BED) is a defined to be the absorbed dose of radiation due to eating one banana. It is a concept that was intended to explain the relative danger of radiation by comparison with natural doses. BED is a radiation dose equivalent unit; the corresponding SI unit is the sievert (and rem is also commonly used). The concept has been used in political argument and drawn heavy criticism.[citation needed]

The BED calculation probably originated on a nuclear safety mailing list in 1995.[1] However, the calculation was incorrectly[2] based on the dose for ingestion of pure radioactive potassium-40 (40K) , not the natural ratio found in food....."

"The oft-quoted value of the BED is unjustifiably high and was based on incorrectly applying data for the effective dose due to ingestion of radioactive 40K alone. [14]This is scientifically invalid and effectively ignores the metabolism of 40K in the context of 8,500 times as much stable 39K as found in foodstuff.

Geoff Meggitt (former UK Atomic Energy Authority) said, [15]

    Bananas are radioactive—But they aren't a good way to explain radiation exposure. When you eat a banana, your body's level of Potassium-40 doesn't increase. You just get rid of some excess Potassium-40. The net dose of a banana is zero.

The effects of radiation are not linear with dose. This means that a large acute dose is more dangerous (overwhelming the body's repair mechanisms), while the same dose spread over a period of years may not be harmful at all.[citation needed] Consequently it is less meaningful to make comparisons between long-term diet and acute radiation doses.

Many common artificial radioisotopes are categorically more dangerous than the type of radioisotope naturally in bananas, even if the equivalent dose (Sv) is reported as the same. Nuclear power accidents tend to release radioiodine, which is known to be especially dangerous to children because it concentrates in the thyroid gland. Other radioisotopes may accumulate in the lung. The dose from potassium in bananas is less harmful because it is distributed more evenly throughout the body, and does not accumulate."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_equivalent_dose


Which of the food groups and/or common substances contain the categorically more dangerous artificial radioisotopes released in nuclear accidents instead of the harmless doses of say.. Potassium-40 contained in a banana?

Regards,
Sun


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Offline warhed

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Re: Japan Earthquake News
« Reply #427 on: March 30, 2011, 09:27:59 PM »
Plutonium is not harmful until injested either, how does spent fuel buried in a mountain hurt you?
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Offline moot

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Re: Japan Earthquake News
« Reply #428 on: March 30, 2011, 10:17:49 PM »
Last I heard thorium reactors are around 50 years off.  Considering if we started building a traditional PWR right now, it would be be 2-4 years before even that would be online (in the U.S.).  So 50 years is probably the minimum. 
Kind of incredible but true apparently.
http://nucleargreen.blogspot.com/2011/01/china-starts-lftr-development-project.html


If you guys are going to argue like this..
Quote
for me and coincidentally my children...my grand children,my great, great grand children
can you move it to another thread?
« Last Edit: March 30, 2011, 10:20:27 PM by moot »
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Offline Sundowner

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Re: Japan Earthquake News
« Reply #429 on: March 31, 2011, 04:56:53 AM »
Kind of incredible but true apparently.
http://nucleargreen.blogspot.com/2011/01/china-starts-lftr-development-project.html


If you guys are going to argue like this.. can you move it to another thread?

Roger that...Sorry, moot. :salute

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Sun
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Offline moot

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Re: Japan Earthquake News
« Reply #430 on: March 31, 2011, 06:54:11 AM »
Hehe Don't be sorry... :)  Just too many times these discussions go out of control and then Rolex and anyone else from Japan is less likely to keep us updated on how they're doing.
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Offline VonMessa

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Re: Japan Earthquake News
« Reply #431 on: March 31, 2011, 09:28:35 AM »
Hehe Don't be sorry... :)  Just too many times these discussions go out of control and then Rolex and anyone else from Japan is less likely to keep us updated on how they're doing.

I don't mind hearing some information from a hands-on powerplant employee about what this all means, either.

I prefer that to regurgitated slopipedia cut/pasting.
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Offline EskimoJoe

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Re: Japan Earthquake News
« Reply #432 on: March 31, 2011, 10:03:51 AM »
I don't mind hearing some information from a hands-on powerplant employee about what this all means, either.

I prefer that to regurgitated slopipedia cut/pasting.

Indeed, but would be nice if this were to remain a thread about news,
as opposed to nuclear physics.
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Offline dedalos

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Re: Japan Earthquake News
« Reply #433 on: March 31, 2011, 10:36:42 AM »
Last I heard thorium reactors are around 50 years off.  Considering if we started building a traditional PWR right now, it would be be 2-4 years before even that would be online (in the U.S.).  So 50 years is probably the minimum.  
Wind and Solar don't have the output to replace nuclear or coal, and probably never will, they will most likely only be supplemental.  
We are closely approaching an energy crisis in this country, where supply won't match demand.  While alternative energy source R&D needs to continue, we also need to act now, not later.

A 10 megawatt hydrogen plan just isn't going to cut it.  My single reactor plant puts out over 1600, that's for 2 years straight 24\7 before needing a refuel.  Coal can match nuclear output, but it is literally continually refueled.  Once a nuclear plant starts burning it's fuel, it practically runs itself.  They are incredibly reliable and safe, barring a natural disaster of epic proportions.  If countries prefer polluting themselves with the byproducts of coal, then I guess we can live in a nuclear free world, that's an awfully big step backwards in my opinion.  You're talking at the very least 50 years before a power source comes along able to replace coal.

I just don't understand the outrage and fear when it comes to the Japan nuclear situation.  Where is the international outrage when a coal mine explodes, when a fly ash pond decimates miles and miles of land, when mountain tops are literally torn apart to get at coal, when mercury from coal plants is linked to human disease, etc.  Yet even after Three Mile Island and Japan, when nuclear power shows how safe it can be even when the worst possible scenario happens, it's still treated as a nuclear bomb about to go off at anytime.

The reason is ignorance.  I would love to see everything go nuke.  Less pollution and destruction to the environment.
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Offline VonMessa

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Re: Japan Earthquake News
« Reply #434 on: March 31, 2011, 10:41:23 AM »
Indeed, but would be nice if this were to remain a thread about news,
as opposed to nuclear physics.

News without any explanation of what it means is utterly useless.
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