Author Topic: Relative dangers of nuclear power  (Read 5480 times)

Offline MrRiplEy[H]

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11633
Re: Relative dangers of nuclear power
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2011, 08:11:31 AM »
sorry moot, you know what happened today, and you post numbers about how save all is,
its sickens me, sorry.

Heh, just how many people have died this week to the nuclear accident? Big fat zero. 4 have been injured in the blast, non critical.

The fallout will be dangerous, yes, but compared to the tsunami death toll and the resulting biohazard it's a minor thing.
Definiteness of purpose is the starting point of all achievement. –W. Clement Stone

Offline Gh0stFT

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1736
Re: Relative dangers of nuclear power
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2011, 08:21:16 AM »
well moot, i'm not here to back up anything, really. I could talk for hours about the danger of nuclear, there is an ongoing
debate here in germany about the produced nuclear waste and where to put it, this is another danger from nuclear power,
its danger we have to deal with "forever" compared to our lifespan.
On the other side our views differs that much i doubt our debate will lead to anything, since tschernobyl killed only 50 people (your words).
The statement below is true.
The statement above is false.

Offline Melvin

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2797
Re: Relative dangers of nuclear power
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2011, 08:34:14 AM »
well moot, i'm not here to back up anything, really. I could talk for hours about the danger of nuclear, there is an ongoing
debate here in germany about the produced nuclear waste and where to put it, this is another danger from nuclear power,
its danger we have to deal with "forever" compared to our lifespan.
On the other side our views differs that much i doubt our debate will lead to anything, since tschernobyl killed only 50 people (your words).

So, you could talk for "hours" about the dangers of nuke power?

Well how about laying down some facts to support your argument as opposed to blathering emotion driven nonsense.

I don't know why you fellas even try with this question dodging fellow.
See Rule #4

Offline TOMCAT21

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1648
Re: Relative dangers of nuclear power
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2011, 08:40:48 AM »
The USS Thresher(SSN-593) sank in 1963 and the USS Skorpion sank in 1968(?) to date there has been no signs of radiation leakage. The hulls were crushed , but the reactor core is intact.  That being said, reactors in the United States  are built to a higher standard and the safeguards are very thorough. The beneifts of Nuclear power far out weigh the risks. There is still an underground fire burning in a coal mine near Centralia, Pennsylvania. I have been there and it is a ghost town.  
RETIRED US Army/ Flying and dying since Tour 80/"We're paratroopers, Lieutenant, we're supposed to be surrounded." - Capt. Richard Winters.  FSO 412th FNVG/MA- REGULATORS

Offline Gh0stFT

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1736
Re: Relative dangers of nuclear power
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2011, 08:43:03 AM »
blathering emotion driven nonsense.

at least you write bright arguments for this thread, wise man.
The statement below is true.
The statement above is false.

Offline moot

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 16333
      • http://www.dasmuppets.com
Re: Relative dangers of nuclear power
« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2011, 08:49:26 AM »
Selective quoting is flawed basis for argument.  My words weren't only 50 people killed but 50 people killed and a few thousand (say 4,000) gravely affected.  If I'd add something to that, it's that Chernobyl isn't only "a worst case scenario" but also a single data point in a so far similarly sparse dataset. And like at least one other here said, but I haven't cause it's still developing, so far no Japanese deaths except for one or two people who were at ground zero.

Really the only argument I've made so far is that coal and other current alternative energy sources to nuclear are responsible for more deaths and other casualties than nuclear.  I'm all ears to evidence to the contrary, though it's gotta be more convincing than "think of my family" or less vague than "we're debating it in my country".  There's "debate" in the USA and from what I've seen it (and a number of other things relying on nukes, space probes for instance) is pretty skewed by misinformation in the public and corruption in politics.

If you're closed to any evidence to the contrary of your convictions then you can just say so.  It's not clear if you're just convinced I'm out to troll you or whatever holier than thou motivation to keep dodging my arguments, or if you really are just that convinced that nuclear is undoubtedly more dangerous.  And if the latter then why not just pick one of the things I've pointed out and show how it's wrong?  I'm all ears.

So again my assertion: nuclear has killed and otherwise harmed less people than most other energy solutions.  Nuclear would be a safer and cleaner alternative to coal, is the only alternative to coal that can be ramped up relatively quickly (easily quicker than wind / solar), and in replacing coal the net result would be cleaner and safer energy.

I'm all ears to how exactly you weigh the nuclear waste issue as more harmful to people than coal/oil/etc's effects.
Hello ant
running very fast
I squish you

Offline Tac

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4085
Re: Relative dangers of nuclear power
« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2011, 09:12:20 AM »
We can't go full nuclear yet as the world's supply of nuclear fuel would only last just under 50 years fueling those plants.

A nuke fuel rod contains 99% of -238 isotope and 1% 239 isotope... the current reactors only use the -239 portion to generate power, leaving behind the -238 as waste. Scientists are trying to design a reactor that will use the -238 waste fuel rods as fuel... if they can pull this off then the world's supply of power could be satisfied by these new, safer reactors.

Offline Stoney

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3482
Re: Relative dangers of nuclear power
« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2011, 09:15:45 AM »
Selective quoting is flawed basis for argument.  My words weren't only 50 people killed but 50 people killed and a few thousand (say 4,000) gravely affected.  If I'd add something to that, it's that Chernobyl isn't only "a worst case scenario" but also a single data point in a so far similarly sparse dataset. And like at least one other here said, but I haven't cause it's still developing, so far no Japanese deaths except for one or two people who were at ground zero.

Really the only argument I've made so far is that coal and other current alternative energy sources to nuclear are responsible for more deaths and other casualties than nuclear.  I'm all ears to evidence to the contrary, though it's gotta be more convincing than "think of my family" or less vague than "we're debating it in my country".  There's "debate" in the USA and from what I've seen it (and a number of other things relying on nukes, space probes for instance) is pretty skewed by misinformation in the public and corruption in politics.

If you're closed to any evidence to the contrary of your convictions then you can just say so.  It's not clear if you're just convinced I'm out to troll you or whatever holier than thou motivation to keep dodging my arguments, or if you really are just that convinced that nuclear is undoubtedly more dangerous.  And if the latter then why not just pick one of the things I've pointed out and show how it's wrong?  I'm all ears.

So again my assertion: nuclear has killed and otherwise harmed less people than most other energy solutions.  Nuclear would be a safer and cleaner alternative to coal, is the only alternative to coal that can be ramped up relatively quickly (easily quicker than wind / solar), and in replacing coal the net result would be cleaner and safer energy.

I'm all ears to how exactly you weigh the nuclear waste issue as more harmful to people than coal/oil/etc's effects.

Moot, should we really say something like "coal is responsible for more deaths than nuclear"?  Directly attributing deaths due to coal power plant emissions is a very dicey proposition.  Personally, I think current nuclear, and future nuclear technology is the only credible commercial power generation method that will allow the world to meet energy demand going forward, but I think its tough to make an apples to apples comparison of coal deaths to nuclear deaths.  This argument tends more towards the emotional side of the argument, IMO, than the practical, rational side of the argument (i.e. comparing fatalities isn't the strongest argument that can be made in support of nuclear).
"Can we be incorrect at times, absolutely, but I do believe 15 years of experience does deserve a little more credence and respect than you have given from your very first post."

HiTech

Offline gyrene81

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11629
Re: Relative dangers of nuclear power
« Reply #23 on: March 12, 2011, 09:16:19 AM »
hey moot...irony...an electric power plant has an electrical outage   :lol

in the case of a nuke plant...chernobyl...or worse   :uhoh

in the case of a coal plant...no more smoke for a while   :D


we are all being constantly subjected to various forms of radiation every single day...people living near high power lines get more than people that live out in the boondocks...nuke power is not "safer" than coal, hydro or other alternatives, regardless of how people try to spin it...the current events in japan are absolute evidence of that, and no scientist in the world can diminish the dangers or the long term environmental impact of such events with b.s. statistics.
jarhed  
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett

Offline MrRiplEy[H]

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11633
Re: Relative dangers of nuclear power
« Reply #24 on: March 12, 2011, 09:17:12 AM »
We can't go full nuclear yet as the world's supply of nuclear fuel would only last just under 50 years fueling those plants.

A nuke fuel rod contains 99% of -238 isotope and 1% 239 isotope... the current reactors only use the -239 portion to generate power, leaving behind the -238 as waste. Scientists are trying to design a reactor that will use the -238 waste fuel rods as fuel... if they can pull this off then the world's supply of power could be satisfied by these new, safer reactors.

Known supply. Uranium mining is very inactive. Finland has massive natural reserves of uranium that are completely unmined for example.
Definiteness of purpose is the starting point of all achievement. –W. Clement Stone

Offline moot

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 16333
      • http://www.dasmuppets.com
Re: Relative dangers of nuclear power
« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2011, 09:33:36 AM »
Moot, should we really say something like "coal is responsible for more deaths than nuclear"?  Directly attributing deaths due to coal power plant emissions is a very dicey proposition.  Personally, I think current nuclear, and future nuclear technology is the only credible commercial power generation method that will allow the world to meet energy demand going forward, but I think its tough to make an apples to apples comparison of coal deaths to nuclear deaths.  This argument tends more towards the emotional side of the argument, IMO, than the practical, rational side of the argument (i.e. comparing fatalities isn't the strongest argument that can be made in support of nuclear).
I'm purposefully trying to make it easy for Ghost to counter argue.  I've got loads of articles and studies saved on relative harmfulness of energy sources but never dug into them.  I'm really not trying to pull a fast one on Ghost or anyone else anti-nuclear.  The evidence I've seen is overwhelming and I wouldn't pass up an opportunity for so much evidence to be proven wrong.
  That said, yes, the data I've seen suggests as much - coal clearly more harmful.  I'd be glad to go back and dig into everything if Ghost or others are willing to do more than one-liners.

Sorry to be so wordy but I want to be esp. clear lest some think I'm being less than honest.


We can't go full nuclear yet as the world's supply of nuclear fuel would only last just under 50 years fueling those plants.

A nuke fuel rod contains 99% of -238 isotope and 1% 239 isotope... the current reactors only use the -239 portion to generate power, leaving behind the -238 as waste. Scientists are trying to design a reactor that will use the -238 waste fuel rods as fuel... if they can pull this off then the world's supply of power could be satisfied by these new, safer reactors.
Assuming for argument's sake that were true, you've still got Thorium.
The Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactor: What Fusion Wanted To Be (55 min)
Thorium Remix 2009 - LFTR in 25 Minutes - redux of above link
Thorium Remix 2009 - LFTR in 16 Minutes - redux of redux above

hey moot...irony...an electric power plant has an electrical outage   :lol

in the case of a nuke plant...chernobyl...or worse   :uhoh

in the case of a coal plant...no more smoke for a while   :D


we are all being constantly subjected to various forms of radiation every single day...people living near high power lines get more than people that live out in the boondocks...nuke power is not "safer" than coal, hydro or other alternatives, regardless of how people try to spin it...the current events in japan are absolute evidence of that, and no scientist in the world can diminish the dangers or the long term environmental impact of such events with b.s. statistics.
Right, so debunk the evidence I've already posted.  So far single digit death count in Japan, versus how many dead to e.g. coal pollution?

Quote
in the case of a nuke plant...chernobyl...or worse   :uhoh
Or worse?  How have more than 50% of historical nuke incidents been worse than Chernobyl?


edit- Thorium links
« Last Edit: March 12, 2011, 09:44:08 AM by moot »
Hello ant
running very fast
I squish you

Offline gyrene81

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11629
Re: Relative dangers of nuclear power
« Reply #26 on: March 12, 2011, 09:48:03 AM »
Right, so debunk the evidence I've already posted.
don't have to...the nuke plants in japan are giving a live demonstration as we speak.

tell you what...go stand inside a coal fired plant when it loses power...then go stand inside a nuke plant when it loses power...then come back and tell us which one you felt safer in. with all that data you have amassed, did you happen to grab any info on where the spent fuel rods are disposed of? i'm sure somewhere in there the words "safely disposed of...." appear...when in reality there is no such thing as "safely disposed of" as long as they remain on this planet.

i'm not an advocate for coal or nuke power...the waste from either is very hazardous...and both are environmentally destructive...but if a coal plant has a mechanical failure, even to the point of exploding...the kill radius isn't going to be measured in miles for the next 50 years.
jarhed  
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett

Offline Shuffler

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 27070
Re: Relative dangers of nuclear power
« Reply #27 on: March 12, 2011, 09:52:19 AM »
sorry moot, but i'm not in the mood of copy/paste tons of links & diagrams about how dangerous nuclear power plants are.
I started posting today here because of what happened in japan and now i ended up surrounded by Pro nuclear fans
pointing at me and how all save is and everything else kills *lol*
I don't think they are so pro nuclear. They are just stating historical facts and studies.

The same as calling you pro coal. :)

don't have to...the nuke plants in japan are giving a live demonstration as we speak.

tell you what...go stand inside a coal fired plant when it loses power...then go stand inside a nuke plant when it loses power...then come back and tell us which one you felt safer in. with all that data you have amassed, did you happen to grab any info on where the spent fuel rods are disposed of? i'm sure somewhere in there the words "safely disposed of...." appear...when in reality there is no such thing as "safely disposed of" as long as they remain on this planet.

i'm not an advocate for coal or nuke power...the waste from either is very hazardous...and both are environmentally destructive...but if a coal plant has a mechanical failure, even to the point of exploding...the kill radius isn't going to be measured in miles for the next 50 years.

Coal plant is more of a threat when operating. :)
« Last Edit: March 12, 2011, 09:53:56 AM by Shuffler »
80th FS "Headhunters"

S.A.P.P.- Secret Association Of P-38 Pilots (Lightning In A Bottle)

Offline moot

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 16333
      • http://www.dasmuppets.com
Re: Relative dangers of nuclear power
« Reply #28 on: March 12, 2011, 10:08:28 AM »
go stand inside a coal fired plant when it loses power...then go stand inside a nuke plant when it loses power...then come back and tell us which one you felt safer in.
non sequitur

http://www.ornl.gov/info/ornlreview/rev26-34/text/colmain.html
Hello ant
running very fast
I squish you

Offline Yossarian

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2516
Re: Relative dangers of nuclear power
« Reply #29 on: March 12, 2011, 10:33:21 AM »
with all that data you have amassed, did you happen to grab any info on where the spent fuel rods are disposed of? i'm sure somewhere in there the words "safely disposed of...." appear...when in reality there is no such thing as "safely disposed of" as long as they remain on this planet.

I have a better idea - why don't you tell ME where all that burnt fossil fuels is disposed of.

In exchange, I'll tell you what happens to nuclear fuel rods: someone will dig a very long tunnel.  It will be lined with a lot of concrete, and buried under a lot of rock.  Nuclear fuel (which has been carefully sealed in glass and stuck into bomb-proof containers) will then be placed at the end of that tunnel.  When said tunnel has been filled beyond a certain point, it will then be sealed repeatedly, and signposted with many languages to the effect of 'if you can read this, GTFO'.

Now since my first line was a rhetorical question, let's look at what happens with the by-products of fossil fuels: they get dumped into the atmosphere.  Yes, that's right - all that toxic and/or not-very-good-for-you stuff you really shouldn't be breathing gets dumped into the very stuff you do breath.

So let's compare the two.  With nuclear waste, the stuff gets buried underground in very secure containers that aren't going anywhere anytime soon.  With the products of fossil-fuels, the stuff gets dumped in the atmosphere for everyone to inhale.  Now you tell me which one you think is safer.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2011, 10:34:58 AM by Yossarian »
Afk for a year or so.  The name of a gun turret in game.  Falanx, huh? :banana:
Apparently I'm in the 20th FG 'Loco Busters', or so the legend goes.
O o
/Ż________________________
| IMMA FIRIN' MAH 75MM!!!
\_ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ