Author Topic: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle  (Read 3149 times)

Offline MarineUS

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2679
      • Imperial Legion
Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
« Reply #30 on: March 20, 2011, 01:39:21 PM »
in the 18th/19th century? you should read more...assume less.

all the way through wwi illiteracy was a problem among the ranks of foot soldiers...officers were the educated ones...because their families were rich and could afford to be educated. during the time that air rifle was created, the average soldier could barely spell his name, let alone read an instruction manual (not that any existed)...it wasn't considered necessary for a foot soldier to be able to read, just fire the weapon as they were taught.
And guess who the ones were making all the biggest mistakes?

Granted not ALL officers were incompetent morons - just the majority. A tradition we seem to carry on to this day.
Like, ya know, when that thing that makes you move, it has pistons and things, When your thingamajigy is providing power, you do not hear other peoples thingamajig when they are providing power.

HiTech

Offline Penguin

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3089
Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2011, 03:19:33 PM »
in the 18th/19th century? you should read more...assume less.

all the way through wwi illiteracy was a problem among the ranks of foot soldiers...officers were the educated ones...because their families were rich and could afford to be educated. during the time that air rifle was created, the average soldier could barely spell his name, let alone read an instruction manual (not that any existed)...it wasn't considered necessary for a foot soldier to be able to read, just fire the weapon as they were taught.

My bad.  I meant today's soldiers ought to be literate.  I didn't mean to cause confusion!

-Penguin

Offline gyrene81

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11629
Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
« Reply #32 on: March 20, 2011, 03:34:41 PM »
And guess who the ones were making all the biggest mistakes?

Granted not ALL officers were incompetent morons - just the majority. A tradition we seem to carry on to this day.
:rofl   :lol  true throughout history there have been few exceptions.
jarhed  
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett

Offline MaSonZ

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2074
Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
« Reply #33 on: March 20, 2011, 04:13:09 PM »
I think your opinion of people back then is a bit skewed.  I'd argue that institutional education not withstanding, those people had far more common sense and far greater knowledge of things you and I know nothing about.  I remember my great grandmother showing me a copy of a test she took back in 1910, she was 9 years old at that time, and I couldn't answer half of the questions that were on it and I have always done well on modern tests; ACT, ASVAB et.c.
im in agreement...i'm only 17, have tinkered with odds and ends here and there on cars and the sorts... not completely stupid with them. but I ask my dad something about a car and i give him a breif sentence describing it he pretty well knows the issue...and to think someone had to teach him that knowledge, and so on down the line. The more technological our world gets the less intelligent we as a race get. we need more farming and carpentry, less computers and robots.
"Only the dead have seen the end of war" - Plato
HogDweeb

Offline Penguin

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3089
Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
« Reply #34 on: March 20, 2011, 04:28:33 PM »
Well sure, but then we wouldn't know how to use our computers.  All things seems 'simple', 'easy' or 'quick' when discussed in theory.  However, once a field is explored, one realizes that it is not as simple as it seems.  For instance, drawing.  It took me years to learn to draw male and female faces differently (seriously, the shemale or Mr. Nutless guys I created then give grown men pause).

-Penguin

Offline MaSonZ

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2074
Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
« Reply #35 on: March 20, 2011, 05:31:53 PM »
Well sure, but then we wouldn't know how to use our computers.  All things seems 'simple', 'easy' or 'quick' when discussed in theory.  However, once a field is explored, one realizes that it is not as simple as it seems.  For instance, drawing.  It took me years to learn to draw male and female faces differently (seriously, the shemale or Mr. Nutless guys I created then give grown men pause).

-Penguin
but you see, we dont need a calculator to tell us what the squared root 3,680 X 14 divided by 36. who is going to that, unless of course your working for nasa. we dont need a fancy calculator telling us the rise and run with each height and depth for our stringers to put a stair case in. we dont need a fancy $3,000 GPS system to get a farmer from one field to the next while watching a movie in his tractor. calculators are great if your working for Nasa, dont get me wrong, but the other things? really? God gave us brains so we could use them...not be victims of two or 3 genius' patent. its sad how dependant we are on technology for every day things.
"Only the dead have seen the end of war" - Plato
HogDweeb

Offline Penguin

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3089
Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
« Reply #36 on: March 20, 2011, 06:18:56 PM »
but you see, we dont need a calculator to tell us what the squared root 3,680 X 14 divided by 36. who is going to that, unless of course your working for nasa. we dont need a fancy calculator telling us the rise and run with each height and depth for our stringers to put a stair case in. we dont need a fancy $3,000 GPS system to get a farmer from one field to the next while watching a movie in his tractor. calculators are great if your working for Nasa, dont get me wrong, but the other things? really? God gave us brains so we could use them...not be victims of two or 3 genius' patent. its sad how dependant we are on technology for every day things.

This is too good to resist.  Humor me in my insanity.

How old are you?  If you're a scholar/student, this attitude is inexcusable. 

How many of us are farmers?  Honestly, have you missed the Industrial Revolution?

Victims?  How are we victims?  If we can use technology to do the legwork, why not?  We still know how to add, subtract and multiply.  It'll take longer, but give me a piece of paper and I can (theoretically) add, subtract or multiply any two infinitely large numbers.

Math is art, it has limited practical applicability, but if you get past all the excercises and textbooks, math is actually FUN.  Try coming up with a formula for determining how many seconds you've been alive, or how many girlfriends you will have annually.  Math is fun, it's just that school makes it seem like drudgery.

Not to insult you, but you need to realize that computation isn't the end of math.  In fact, it's the one thing that keeps it from being fun.  Who would like to do the long division for:

34,122,235,463
2,347,892,345,989,235

Math is really about stuff like this: ei*3.14159...=-1 

I'm sorry for my rant, but many fail to realize how wonderful math can be. 

-Pengun

Offline gyrene81

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11629
Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
« Reply #37 on: March 21, 2011, 08:41:33 AM »
ya, math is great...like stale bread...eat it if you're starving but not if you have a choice.

the only math i consider essential is windage and elevation...the rest is like english to a thai farmer.
jarhed  
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett

Offline dedalos

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8052
Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
« Reply #38 on: March 21, 2011, 08:58:45 AM »
im in agreement...i'm only 17, have tinkered with odds and ends here and there on cars and the sorts... not completely stupid with them. but I ask my dad something about a car and i give him a breif sentence describing it he pretty well knows the issue...and to think someone had to teach him that knowledge, and so on down the line. The more technological our world gets the less intelligent we as a race get. we need more farming and carpentry, less computers and robots.

I agree.  Knowing about cars = intelligence.  Digging a trench = intelligence.  Making computers and robots = stupid  :aok
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline MarineUS

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2679
      • Imperial Legion
Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
« Reply #39 on: March 21, 2011, 02:25:57 PM »
the only math i consider essential is windage and elevation...the rest is like english to a thai farmer.
According to the surroundings, I'm going to need 1 click right. Should be center. ;)

One shot....
Like, ya know, when that thing that makes you move, it has pistons and things, When your thingamajigy is providing power, you do not hear other peoples thingamajig when they are providing power.

HiTech

Offline gyrene81

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11629
Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
« Reply #40 on: March 21, 2011, 03:15:06 PM »
According to the surroundings, I'm going to need 1 click right. Should be center. ;)

One shot....
i was thinking 3 clicks but then i'm seeing debris flying around...  :t
jarhed  
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett

Offline Vudak

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4819
Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
« Reply #41 on: March 21, 2011, 03:20:00 PM »


Math is art, it has limited practical applicability, but if you get past all the excercises and textbooks, math is actually FUN.  Try coming up with a formula for determining how many seconds you've been alive, or how many girlfriends you will have annually.  Math is fun, it's just that school makes it seem like drudgery.


Come on now, at least give yourself a bit of a challenge!  :D  :P
Vudak
352nd Fighter Group

Offline Penguin

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3089
Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
« Reply #42 on: March 21, 2011, 04:12:44 PM »
I agree.  Knowing about cars = intelligence.  Digging a trench = intelligence.  Making computers and robots = stupid  :aok

If you wish to reclaim whatever shred of dignity you have left, please support your point.  I will support mine.

Making computers and robots is not "stupid".  Computers run almost any car with nowadays; unless you're an antique collector, understanding your CPU is quite important when tuning.  In fact, without your CPU, your engine would overheat, cracking the block.  You can already see how important computers are to cars.

Digging a trench can be made easier by using a computer to plan it (assuming that it is a long enough trench).  Have you ever heard of the Engineering Design Process?  It entails quite a bit of mental legwork before you even touch that shovel.  The trench needs definite dimesions, and must fit within the surrounding obstacles.  A computer can model those surroundings and make digging the trench a simple matter of following the plan.

If you consider building computers and robots stupid, consier this as well.  One who could be considered the brightest in the county (he is 16 and a sophmore in college), is still baffled by technical problems arising from the building of our school's robot for our F.I.R.S.T. competition.  Building a computer isn't easy, either.

To build a computer, one must put together a dizzying array of parts, screws and delicate components.  Firstly, you will need (at least for a desktop) a motherboard to hook it all into, and then: a power cord, a hardrive, RAM, graphics card, mouse, keyboard, monitor, input jacks, output jacks, power button, CD/DVD drive, cooling fan(s), processor, and the wires, screws and aluminum to connect it all.

All technical things require intelligence, do not let your limited knowledge of a field allow you to assume its simplicity.

-Penguin

-Penguin

Offline Motherland

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8110
Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
« Reply #43 on: March 21, 2011, 05:21:47 PM »
snip
You should get better at detecting sarcasm
but you see, we dont need a calculator to tell us what the squared root 3,680 X 14 divided by 36.
It's certainly a lot more convenient than doing it by hand...
Of course, some stupid idiot came up with the idea for the calculator instead of milking his cows and working in the fields...

Actually, those air rifles are quite complex.  Would you trust a herd of illiterate peasants with rifles worth in the tens of thousands in today's money?

-Penguin
While poorly articulated, this is probably largely correct. These weapons were probably too complex to be produced cheaply enough and in large enough numbers to become a standard issue weapon, as well as being too complex to be maintained in the field.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2011, 05:24:40 PM by Motherland »

Offline mtnman

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2438
Re: Lewis & Clarks Air Rifle
« Reply #44 on: March 21, 2011, 08:48:07 PM »
These weapons were probably too complex to be produced cheaply enough and in large enough numbers to become a standard issue weapon, as well as being too complex to be maintained in the field.

In the early to mid-1800's, annual income for an average worker was something like $400 - $600.  A muzzle-loading rifle cost roughly $150.  The rifle cost 1/4 to 1/3 of an average persons annual salary... 

Also, almost every single gun was individually created.  No real standardization of parts.  That didn't really happen much until the mid-1800's.  Even as late as the civil war, just providing ammunition was a hassle because the weapons weren't standardized enough. 

Prior to that, the gunsmith hand-made his gun barrel, and then hand-made the gun around that.  When it was finished, he hand-made a mold for the bullets for that individual rifle.  Nowadays, we have muzzle=loading rifles in standard .32, .44, .45, .50, .54, etc.  We use standard 44, .49, .53 balls, etc...

Back then my rifle might have used a .525 ball, while your "identical" rifle made by the same smith might need a .510 ball.

Really, as interesting as it was/is, the "air" rifle never went anywhere...  It's still considered a "toy".  I've been looking, and haven't found any real data on the Lewis and Clark rifle.  What kind of FPS did it produce?  How did it vary after several shots?  The guy in the video really doesn't give any factual information regarding accuracy or velocity.  Breaking through a 1" board at 100yds doesn't mean all that much, IMO. 

For accuracy, the rifle would rely on a tight fit in the rifling, and that was known at the time. 

In every other rifle at the time, that was achieved with a tight-fitting patch/ball combination.  No bullets (or very few anyway) were being loaded from the breach, and none were contained in cartridges.  That means several things...  For one, all muzzle-loaded balls were "undersized", so would simply roll out of the barrel if the gun was tipped (the patch prevented that).  But with breech-loaded projectiles the ball/bullet is over-sized, so gets "slammed" into the rear of the rifling (engaging the rifling and sealing the bore). 

The air rifle would have needed the latter...  And if it used over-sized balls it would have required substantial pressure to form the ball to the rifling and seal the bore.  Without doing that, accuracy would suffer greatly, as would velocity.  For a repeater, that would have also meant wasted energy as compressed air passed around the ball as it traveled (bounced?) down the bore.  Modern air-rifles get best accuracy with skirted pellets that flare open from the rear to engage the rifling and seal the bore.  Those type of projectiles weren't used until the civil war (half a life-time after Lewis and Clark).

Honestly, it's a cool gun.  But I think it's being over-hyped.  It never went anywhere, and never saw much use/popularity beyond that of a toy.  My guess is that one big reason is that compressed air simply isn't as easy and efficient as a mixture of sulfur, charcoal, and potassium nitrate.  That's also why it isn't replacing gasoline as a fuel, even though it can be used to turn over a motor.

It had usefulness as "show" with the native people L and C came across, but I doubt anyone would have been rushing for that weapon over a standard black powder weapon (or a knife) had a battle come up.  L and C took a small cannon for the same reason (show).  Keep in mind, the first powder-operated firearms used in battle were mostly for "show" as well!
MtnMan

"Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not". Thomas Jefferson