Author Topic: F4U1A vs. 190D  (Read 2134 times)

Offline Noah17

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F4U1A vs. 190D
« on: March 18, 2011, 05:50:49 AM »
Can we have a discussion pros/cons of these two?

So, I know the F4U is going to turn better, have a good barrel roll and, should be a little more durable generally speaking. The 190D is faster, climbs better and, rolls better.

The advantage would seem to be w/ the 190 however I don't get killed by them much.....Except yesterday when I had run out of fuel and Pervert got me....He made a good shot, I don't want to take credit away from him. I still don't normally lose to a 190 unless; I never saw him, or I run out of fuel/was already damaged. Normally a 190D attacking me works like this: He started w/ more altitude, makes a pass at high speed I wait for his inevitable spiral climb....I normally say to myself "oh geez can't they do anything else?" I'll avoid the attempt to rope me and I keep going until I reset the fight at a similar level of E. At that time I'm generally able to reverse, lead turn him from head on and, by that point he has to decide to turn fight me....I'll win, go away and come back w/more E to try again or, just go home.

I've been thinking about it since yesterday and can't think of anything; else what am I missing?
 :salute

Offline Urchin

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Re: F4U1A vs. 190D
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2011, 06:56:32 AM »
In any sort of fight the f4u is going to eat a 190 up. The 190s options are to wait for a pick, make a couple bore n zoom passes and run, and burn off all his e trying for a quick kill. If he doesn't get it within the first 15-20 seconds, his choice is to run or die. If its a 190a he won't even be able to run.

Offline 33Vortex

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Re: F4U1A vs. 190D
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2011, 07:01:55 AM »
For what it's worth, here's my take on it.

Flying the 190 is all about angles and lead shots, sure the D model turn a whole lot better, is faster and climb better but it always comes down to the pilot and his ability to make use of the advantages as they are presented to him or gained by him. I don't really understand your query, half the fight is before the fight when you position yourself. Situational awareness is a key factor in any fight. Trying to extend or separate from the enemy is not a bad thing when it's the only option you have in order to avoid to get shot down, however some jocks don't have the fine ability to judge when this is indeed necessary and when not.

Situational Awareness -> Positioning & Timing
Tactical Understanding -> Maneuvering & Timing
Gunnery Understanding -> Guns Solution & Kill

Did I forget something? I probably did, but when it comes to air combat and the necessary maneuvering associated with it there's a paradox in that nothing can be specified without making gross generalizations. So all that remain is generalizations. A pilot less skilled in one area may be able to compensate for this by the use of a better aircraft, to aquire better skills in another area (situational awareness f ex) or both.


In reference to Urchin's statement, which is more of the nature of expressing a opinion than that of presenting fact, I am a living example which disprove his standpoint. I fly the 190D somewhere around 85-90% of my ingame time, and would like to think of myself as a decent stick in that type and more than capable of shooting down a F4U. In the end, it comes down to who's piloting it and his ability to handle the situation. However sometimes it's just a matter of my capacity or lack thereof to place rounds where they need to be.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2011, 07:14:11 AM by 33Vortex »

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Offline Blooz

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Re: F4U1A vs. 190D
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2011, 08:40:19 AM »
I've been thinking about it since yesterday and can't think of anything; else what am I missing?

Fuel status awareness.

You know. The ability to leave the combat area with enough fuel to avoid being shot down by someone you'd normally be able to defeat easily.

So many things to remember.
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Offline Patches1

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Re: F4U1A vs. 190D
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2011, 12:23:54 PM »
Quote
I know the F4U is going to turn better
Quote

The 190D is faster, climbs better and, rolls better.

Quote
The advantage would seem to be w/ the 190 however I don't get killed by them much.....Except yesterday when I had run out of fuel and Pervert got me....He made a good shot, I don't want to take credit away from him. I still don't normally lose to a 190 unless; I never saw him, or I run out of fuel/was already damaged. Normally a 190D attacking me works like this: He started w/ more altitude, makes a pass at high speed I wait for his inevitable spiral climb....I normally say to myself "oh geez can't they do anything else?" I'll avoid the attempt to rope me and I keep going until I reset the fight at a similar level of E. At that time I'm generally able to reverse, lead turn him from head on and, by that point he has to decide to turn fight me....I'll win, go away and come back w/more E to try again or, just go home.

I've been thinking about it since yesterday and can't think of anything; else what am I missing?

Quote
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Offline Muzzy

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Re: F4U1A vs. 190D
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2011, 01:38:53 PM »
I agree that it really does boil down to pilot ability.  The 190 Dora can play the energy game and if the pilot is patient enough he can get the corsair low and slow.  I'm not a fan of putting the corsair into 'zeke mode', slow with flaps out, because it's a bigger target than other turn birds.  On the other hand, the Corsair has very good energy retention qualities, so it can give the Dora a heck of a fight.  It all boils down on who can manage their energy better.


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Offline BnZs

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Re: F4U1A vs. 190D
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2011, 01:41:21 PM »
In any sort of fight the f4u is going to eat a 190 up. The 190s options are to wait for a pick, make a couple bore n zoom passes and run, and burn off all his e trying for a quick kill. If he doesn't get it within the first 15-20 seconds, his choice is to run or die. If its a 190a he won't even be able to run.

Its not that bad Urchin. The 190 Dora has much better e-building ability. If the Wurger pilot is *patient* he will be able to build enough margin for a high-side guns pass. The only factor of difficulty is the Corsair's ability to remain nose up and practically 0 airspeed and get lucky with long range pings.
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Offline pervert

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Re: F4U1A vs. 190D
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2011, 01:55:42 PM »
Yeah I remember this although I have no film so I don't know which one of the 2 hogs you were until I shot you down, tbh and I hope you won't take this the wrong way, even from a posistion of disadvantage it was pretty easy to avoid you guns and you and the other fella burnt your E advantage sticking the stick in your gut for a quick shot. Once a friendly came in and kept your buddys attention, with a 6 posistion on you I can decide how much E your burning relative to me burn less go vertical and let you hang yourself, your only chance there is another friendly helping you or as BnZs says a lucky long range shot in the stall.

 

Offline Ardy123

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Re: F4U1A vs. 190D
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2011, 01:57:57 PM »
F4u vs 190D....

so just add a 109k4 to get into a turn fight with the f4u and have the 190 blow through and pick the f4u.  :aok

... more points if he collides with the f4u too.

Rudboi doesn't remember this from last night or anything...  :D
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Offline Big Rat

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Re: F4U1A vs. 190D
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2011, 06:09:22 PM »
Noah,

I know you know my skill with an F4U, you may not know I'm a terrible 190 stick.  But I know the Corsair well enough to know that I can beat it fairly easily with a little patience with a 190D.  You simply must use the 190's far superior accelleration, and consistently stay in a verticle fight with the hog, never letting the hog go nose down, and never letting it have a long enough straight run to build up any speed.  You basically ends up working like this.  Co E Co alt pass, both planes will go verticle, second pass  (where the 190 has to be carefull), you'll have to take the hog verticle again and the more verticle the better.  After two verticle passes the hog should be drained.  After passing the hog on the 2nd merge extend a little bit, enough to take your Dora verticle again, but not far enough that the hog will regain enough E to do the same.  On the next merge this will force the hog to do one of two things, either have to slightly nose down to follow your next verticle merge (giving up alt), or flat turn under you giving up even more speed.  Either case you are above and a higher potential E state.  Once in this position the fight is under your control. 

The opposite side of this, if I know I'm going into a fight with a superior accelarating plane I'm going for the high ground early.  With a Hog this means trying to come into the fight higher or if possible diving in outside of icon range, so I'm coming in with a mountain of speed.  Making my first merge as verticle as possible trying to have the  eg. Dora fight up from the start.

Fortunately for most hog drivers, patience isn't something commonly seen in the MA's  :lol

 :salute
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Offline mtnman

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Re: F4U1A vs. 190D
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2011, 07:28:45 PM »
Noah,

I know you know my skill with an F4U, you may not know I'm a terrible 190 stick.  But I know the Corsair well enough to know that I can beat it fairly easily with a little patience with a 190D.  You simply must use the 190's far superior accelleration, and consistently stay in a verticle fight with the hog, never letting the hog go nose down, and never letting it have a long enough straight run to build up any speed.  You basically ends up working like this.  Co E Co alt pass, both planes will go verticle, second pass  (where the 190 has to be carefull), you'll have to take the hog verticle again and the more verticle the better.  After two verticle passes the hog should be drained.  After passing the hog on the 2nd merge extend a little bit, enough to take your Dora verticle again, but not far enough that the hog will regain enough E to do the same.  On the next merge this will force the hog to do one of two things, either have to slightly nose down to follow your next verticle merge (giving up alt), or flat turn under you giving up even more speed.  Either case you are above and a higher potential E state.  Once in this position the fight is under your control. 

The opposite side of this, if I know I'm going into a fight with a superior accelarating plane I'm going for the high ground early.  With a Hog this means trying to come into the fight higher or if possible diving in outside of icon range, so I'm coming in with a mountain of speed.  Making my first merge as verticle as possible trying to have the  eg. Dora fight up from the start.

Fortunately for most hog drivers, patience isn't something commonly seen in the MA's  :lol

 :salute
BigRat 

I've got to agree there...

The Dora can really make it tough on an F4U-1A if the pilot is patient.  The same is true for the 109 vs the F4U.

It's a lot like the F4U vs Zeke or Spit.    If the F4U is patient and uses his plane to his advantage, there's not a lot of hope for the slower plane.

Speed and climb-rate mean a ton!
MtnMan

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Offline Noah17

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Re: F4U1A vs. 190D
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2011, 08:06:07 PM »
Good points all.

Patience is one thing I don't always have and I fly at my worst if I'm in a bad mood. I end up getting low in the weeds and inevitably get bounced. Not a place for the F4U to be........
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Offline Urchin

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Re: F4U1A vs. 190D
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2011, 09:55:55 PM »
I disagree. The 190s are so unmaneuverable that any advantage they have on paper is pretty much negated in practice.

If its a co-alt, 1v1 merge and I'm in an F4U, I'm not even going to go vertical at the first merge. I'll avoid the inevitable HO, and keep my speed up in a sweeping (horizontal) turn as the Dora goes up. If the Dora really cranks it around I know right then he has lost his speed advantage - so I'll tighten my turn up to present him with my 3 or 9. If he really tries for the shot he'll blow any energy margin he has away and probably miss anyway. If he makes a half-assed pass, he'll definitely miss the shot and we'll be back to square one.

If the Dora wants to bleed my speed down to the point where I'll have a tough time dodging his pass, he will have to aggressively persecute the fight - and if he does that our E states will converge. Once that happens, even if the Dora has an initial position advantage his only options are to run or die.

Or wait for some friends and come back for a pick but that was already covered.

Offline 33Vortex

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Re: F4U1A vs. 190D
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2011, 04:03:31 AM »
Urhin what you are describing is a fight vs a 190 whose pilot simply does not know how to fly a 190D to its advantages. Admittedly most players in AH don't and make the mistake to handle it like a turn fighter. Something the Dora simply isn't and flying it that way will only get you shot down. If a 190D try to keep up with a F4U maneuvering it's doomed, so it's very simple. Stay fast and work the angles while retaining as much E as you can. This technique can be used in any type of aircraft by the way and is superior to turn fighting, but few ever bother to try and learn it because somehow furballing is considered the finer point of the art by many. :huh

You will never be able to make up for bad tactical decisions through maneuvering unless you fly the more maneuverable aircraft in a fight, get lucky or is up against a bad stick. This is why the good 190 sticks become good tacticians, because they have to. While the furballers call them names out of frustration because of their inability to get to them.

Tactics and maneuvering should not be confused. They are related but not the same. A maneuver is the result of a tactical decision whether you are aware of it or not. Tactics involve time, angles, position and speed while maneuvering is what is required to change these factors. I'd argue that when furballers lock on to a target to pursue it they are not thinking tactically, because they disregard everything else. I'm not saying every furballer do this, but it's a common mistake which I too have made hundreds of times literally.

Anyway, just wanted to chip in because I don't think it's fair to the 190D (or any type for that matter) to describe its best performance based on a mediocre or bad stick.

One of the best overall fighters in the game is without doubt the Spit XVI, it can E fight, turn fight and everything in between. But we rarely if ever see it flown to its true advantages simply because those who fly the spit16 are usually in love with only one aspect of it.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2011, 04:23:20 AM by 33Vortex »

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Offline Urchin

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Re: F4U1A vs. 190D
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2011, 07:33:34 AM »
The point I was making is that in a 1v1, the D-9 simply cannot do what you describe as " Stay fast and work the angles while retaining as much E as you can. This technique can be used in any type of aircraft by the way and is superior to turn fighting, but few ever bother to try and learn it because somehow furballing is considered the finer point of the art by many.

It isn't able to manuever hard enough to keep the pressure on an F4U without bleeding off so much E that the only option the D-9 stick has is to run if it can't get the kill in the first 10-20 seconds (and against a competent F4U stick, he won't be able to).

Of course, I am referring to actually fighting. If your idea of the pinnacle of "tactics" is to make one pass, run for 6.5 clicks and zoooooooooooooooooooooom until you stall, then come back for another pass if the guy you are "fighting" is actually fighting someone else then you are right, the D-9 is a helluva good "fighter".

It isn't as good as the Temp/Tiffy, or the P-51 (imo anyway), but the speed and good acceleration at least make it easy to run away when the guy you are "fighting" figures out you are "fighting" him.

As true E-fighters, the 190s are atrocious. As Bore n Zoom cherrypickers they are marginally better - but the poor visibility and mediocre firepower means they aren't truly great at that either.