F4U1A vs. 190D

[33Vortex]

Interesting perspective but you seem more interested in argumentation rather than a honest discussion of facts. I do not feel inclined to follow you into that snakepit.

[Urchin]

All I can give is my opinion based on what I know of the planes in the game. I am not interested in blowing smoke up anyones ass.

[Noah17]

I think both Vortex and Urchin make good points and, any plane has to be flown to it's strengths to win. I just don't know for sure if the 190D can bring it's real historic ability to the game.
What I mean by that is that in the game it should be almost an unbelievably dominant aircraft but I don't feel it is. I was hoping to be proved a little wrong or, clued in to what I was missing. Anyone who's read my thread's knows I'm an F4U guy but, I've flown the 190D a couple times too and although I really like the plane it seems like you can't really dominate a fight like you think you might. I was hoping to learn something a good 190stick might do for my own use. I remember in Shaw's book a paragraph from a 51 pilot fighting a 190D (maybe John Meyer?) where the 51 pilot was in a fight vs. a 190D and couldn't gain an advantage. I'd like to learn more about that.

Fighting in the vertical is superior to the TnB and the 190D should do this well however; as well as it rolls to line up a target on it's dive it seems very easy to alter your course and keep yourself out of the 190's sights enough to avoid getting killed.
As long as I'm not willing to let myself get roped and avoid HO's the plane is not much more than a nuisance. It has such a wide turn arc that it's easy to roll out of it's way. The only other way he'll get me is if I throw away my SA or, like the earlier fight I mentioned I ran out of fuel and was coasting along at 125 MPH (sometimes you should just let a friend get killed so that he'll learn not go drop in to the weeds and call  you down to help...thereby getting yourself killed too lol).

SA is easier to maintain in AH than it was in WWII. Here we have Bar and Dot Dar and, Icon's. IMO the 190D is defeated by these more then it is by other planes or pilot skill because you know where it is and what it can do. The only way I've seen for a Dora to rack up big kills is staying level around 5k and racing back and forth through the furball hoping that someone flys relatively close enough in front so that the con can be hit with a cannon shot. The BnZ takes the 190 a lot more time as it seems to normally need at least several passes if it is going to have any luck and, doing that means the 190 is going to sacrifice it's own SA and could get jumped by someone else in the process.

Thanks again for your thoughts.

 

[Big Rat]

Noah,

Easily enough tested.  Catch me in the TA, I can up a Dora and you can up a 1a and we can see how this works.  It's very easy to do in a K4 by the method I described earlier, I'm a terrible 190 pilot but I'd be using the same strategy with a plane with similiar power to weight, so it should work.  In theory I should be in control of the fight in 3 merges, given a first equal merge. 

Now saying that, I've had good 190 pilots fly against me in a 1a, and if you are real carefull with your E retention in the 1a you can give them a real hard time and make them pay for the slightest mistake.  But in all these fights it was always the 190D that controlled the tempo of the fight for the most part, eg. it could disengage and reset much easier then I could.  The biggest reason for this is it's much better accelleration and therefore quicker raising of E state.

 
BigRat   

[Urchin]

In game the D-9 does have an advantage over the P-51 (again, in my opinion). The P-51 isn't anywhere near as manueverable as the F4U.  

I think people read accounts of the 190s and say to themselves "There is no way that a plane this awful could have been a replacement for the 109!". I think that happens especially when you compare the 109 family to the 190 family - the 109s are outstanding fighters. They are manueverable, they climb like scalded cats, and they accelerate like rockets. They have fairly poor views out of the cockpit and poor firepower, but they have excellent performance.

The 190s on the other hand are about as manueverable as an airborne brick, climb like de-clawed cats (the D-9 isn't too bad, at speed anyway).

However, the 190s do offer relatively docile handling at speed (where 109s are decidedly unresponsive), and they have better firepower than the 109 family. Air combat in WW2 wasn't anything like air combat in Aces High. The D-9 brings its 'real historical strengths' to the game, but those are not the strengths that offer a real performance advantage in the game.

1v1 an F4U will eat up a 190. 10v10, the D-9s should eat up the F4Us. That is the 'historic ability' of the 190.

[pervert]

As long as I'm not willing to let myself get roped and avoid HO's the plane is not much more than a nuisance. It has such a wide turn arc that it's easy to roll out of it's way. The only other way he'll get me is if I throw away my SA or, like the earlier fight I mentioned I ran out of fuel and was coasting along at 125 MPH (sometimes you should just let a friend get killed so that he'll learn not go drop in to the weeds and call  you down to help...thereby getting yourself killed too lol).

A few points your friend was not in the weeds, it was you being chased down by me, your buddy came in with the alt advantage and cleared your tail. You could have rtb'ed there and then but decided to stick around now it was 2v1 to your advantage, and for all the reasons you have posted so far in this thread you presumed the 190d would be an easy kill, you and the other guy overshot every attempt at guns and blew your E cranking your plane around for the quick shot or failed to keep enough pressure on me for me to lose or keep building my E, this went on for 5 + minutes, when a friendly strayed into the mix to make it 2v2 you decided to rtb and dove to the deck at this point I was at 6k and so was your friendly.

[33Vortex]

It was a long time since I regarded the F4U1a a threat in the MA. They are easy kills for a Dora flown tactically correct.

I'll add to this that flying a 1v1 is very different and negates the pre-positioning before the fight. This plays heavily in favor of the F4U unless the D can stay out of its gunsight long enough to gain advantage through acceleration or climb. If it's a 1v1 starting on equal terms between a 190D and a F4U4, the 190D is dead meat. A 190D pilot simply can't engage in a fight on equal terms with a F4U4 and expect to survive, that's where situational awareness and sound tactics are decisive in the MA or any other type of arena encounter. If a pilot rely too much on the performance of his aircraft he will get tactically sloppy and develop bad habits, or otherwise known as "the F16 syndrome".

[Noah17]

I'll add to this that flying a 1v1 is very different and negates the pre-positioning before the fight. This plays heavily in favor of the F4U unless the D can stay out of its gunsight long enough to gain advantage through acceleration or climb. If it's a 1v1 starting on equal terms between a 190D and a F4U4, the 190D is dead meat. A 190D pilot simply can't engage in a fight on equal terms with a F4U4 and expect to survive, that's where situational awareness and sound tactics are decisive in the MA or any other type of arena encounter.

Thanks Vortex, that's kinda what I was getting at.

A few points your friend was not in the weeds, it was you being chased down by me, your buddy came in with the alt advantage and cleared your tail. You could have rtb'ed there and then but decided to stick around now it was 2v1 to your advantage, and for all the reasons you have posted so far in this thread you presumed the 190d would be an easy kill, you and the other guy overshot every attempt at guns and blew your E cranking your plane around for the quick shot or failed to keep enough pressure on me for me to lose or keep building my E, this went on for 5 + minutes, when a friendly strayed into the mix to make it 2v2 you decided to rtb and dove to the deck at this point I was at 6k and so was your friendly.

Pervert this thread isn't about you and, the person I dropped down to help was not my squaddie that came along in the F4U afterwards. If you would like to start a "F4U-1A w/no engine vs. 190D with an engine thread" go ahead......I never said/presumed that anything flown by anyone in AH is an easy kill.


BigRat are you still in the TA at the same times? I'll see if I can find the account of the 51D pilot I was thinking of and try to drop by....That would be a very constructive/helpful way of learning something. Thanks for offering.

Thanks again for everyones thoughts I appreciate it and my original intent was not intended to to call any plane/pilot out, throw under a bus, or anything like that. I was just looking to learn more about an aircraft that was a great one in WWII and compare it's use here.
 

[33Vortex]

There's a certain irony in the fact that the D model is considered one of the best fighters of the war. The FW190D was never anything but a interim emergency solution which became the most effective Luftwaffe fighter fielded in any relevant numbers.

[pervert]

Pervert this thread isn't about you and, the person I dropped down to help was not my squaddie that came along in the F4U afterwards. If you would like to start a "F4U-1A w/no engine vs. 190D with an engine thread" go ahead......I never said/presumed that anything flown by anyone in AH is an easy kill.

I don't regard it as you 'calling me out' I'm trying to help you. This thread is about an incident you had with me in the MA

the 190 however I don't get killed by them much.....Except yesterday when I had run out of fuel and Pervert got me....He made a good shot, I don't want to take credit away from him.

I can read and understand the bit in red, and yes there is no offence taken on my part.

Had a lot more typed out here but deleted it, it isn't worth my time tbh good luck. 

[Ardy123]

1v1 an F4U will eat up a 190. 10v10, the D-9s should eat up the F4Us. That is the 'historic ability' of the 190.

With the exception of the TA 152 and the 190D, I've only been able to have success in the MA with the 190 when I start the fight with and alt adv, and only then, if I am able to keep the adv. One of the challenges that is not at all like WW2 is that as soon as you kill someone, the tower out and up again, this time coming back to the fight above where they encountered you the previous time.

As a result, if I am forced to get slow for defensive reasons (ie do a reversal and get the overshoot w/ snapshot), I am usually toast, as many more planes subsequently saddle up and its over.

I would love to learn how to learn how to fight with the 190s from a disadvantaged position successfully.

[greens]

It all depends on whos flying the plane, but In this case with a skilled pilot the 1A checkmates the 190D <IMO>.

<S> greens

[Vudak]

Interesting perspective but you seem more interested in argumentation rather than a honest discussion of facts. I do not feel inclined to follow you into that snakepit.

I think he's being quite factual.  Pretending you're Marseille in a D9 (any 190 really) is very difficult.  It is much better suited for those who emulate Hartmann.

[boomerlu]

Of course, I am referring to actually fighting. If your idea of the pinnacle of "tactics" is to make one pass, run for 6.5 clicks and zoooooooooooooooooooooom until you stall, then come back for another pass if the guy you are "fighting" is actually fighting someone else then you are right, the D-9 is a helluva good "fighter".

That is a pretty lame straw-man, even if it does represent the norm in the MA.

A good E-fighter knows that it's not useful to wait too long to start the reverse/climb for the rope. The guy who is chasing you needs to be gently guided down the primrose path. If done right, you will hand your opponent the noose and he will hang himself.

I have done slow spirals in 190s vs much better turn fighters that have less climb. The result depends on the quality of the other pilot. If he's good, he either avoids me entirely or is able to stay out of my gunsights when I do my reverse. If he's not so good... he usually ends up dead.

[Vudak]

That is a pretty lame straw-man, even if it does represent the norm in the MA.

A good E-fighter knows that it's not useful to wait too long to start the reverse/climb for the rope. The guy who is chasing you needs to be gently guided down the primrose path. If done right, you will hand your opponent the noose and he will hang himself.

I have done slow spirals in 190s vs much better turn fighters that have less climb. The result depends on the quality of the other pilot. If he's good, he either avoids me entirely or is able to stay out of my gunsights when I do my reverse. If he's not so good... he usually ends up dead.

A good E-fighter gets his target so excited that said target makes a mistake and is destroyed...