Author Topic: Help with P47?  (Read 1670 times)

Offline Warty

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Help with P47?
« on: March 19, 2011, 12:51:10 AM »
I've flown I dunno, maybe 25% of the AH planeset so far. I don't even think I qualify for "rusty". "Decrepit", maybe. Anyway, I decided I would just stick with the P-47M for now, and see what I can do to get better in that one plane. I was flying against JUGler once a couple weeks ago, and he was in a Jug, I was probably P51, and I had some alt on him, and he revved on me so quickly I still don't know how he got me. All of a sudden he was in a HO position. blammo.

I've read Soda's P47D eval (http://members.shaw.ca/soda_p/P47D40.htm). Are there any other writeups with Jug advice and tactics? preferably, really detailed?

even basic stuff, like what do Jug experts use for convergence and fuel tactics would help.

Offline JUGgler

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Re: Help with P47?
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2011, 11:17:09 AM »
I've flown I dunno, maybe 25% of the AH planeset so far. I don't even think I qualify for "rusty". "Decrepit", maybe. Anyway, I decided I would just stick with the P-47M for now, and see what I can do to get better in that one plane. I was flying against JUGler once a couple weeks ago, and he was in a Jug, I was probably P51, and I had some alt on him, and he revved on me so quickly I still don't know how he got me. All of a sudden he was in a HO position. blammo.

I've read Soda's P47D eval (http://members.shaw.ca/soda_p/P47D40.htm). Are there any other writeups with Jug advice and tactics? preferably, really detailed?

even basic stuff, like what do Jug experts use for convergence and fuel tactics would help.


Hmm, If you are saying that I HOed you, I would seriously doubt that! Now if you would like some help just give me PM when you see me in the MA and I will happily go to the DA/TA (your choice) and help you out!   :aok

 convergence- traditionaly I have set all guns to 300, I am working now with one bank at 250 and each bank there after set 25 yards further out/

Fuel:

 Base defence- 50% and a drop
 Anything past the radar circle- 75% and a drop

In the D11, D25 or the M sometimes I will take 75% - 100% respectively as I've found the added weight helps with E retention on these 3 JUGS. E retention is not a problem with the D40 or the N. The down side here is you will turn poorly but vs E monsters like corsairs it helps get angles in the initial stages of the fight IF your opponent is of poor to average quality  ;)


Hope this helps  :salute






JUGgler
« Last Edit: March 19, 2011, 11:21:11 AM by JUGgler »
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Offline FLS

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Re: Help with P47?
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2011, 01:32:36 PM »
Warty it's likely that you need general ACM help before you need P-47 specific training.

Offline Warty

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Re: Help with P47?
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2011, 02:44:05 PM »
JUGler:

Didn't mean to imply you took a lame HO, it was just a complete surprise for me to see you facing me. It was some kind of front-quarter shot, completely legit. Thanks for the offer of help, I'll take you up on that soon!

cc on conv. and gas info. I noticed you with a drop tank yesterday, thought maybe that was helpful. I will try that next time. I run out of gas A LOT.

FLS: I don't disagree. I guess my point is that I want to try and stick mainly with one plane while getting back on my feet, to reduce the amount of variability in the equation. And I like the Jug, and the 8 .50s :). I'd love to go to one of the training sessions, but I can't ever get on before 10:30 pm Eastern (kids etc), so I end up missing them. hell, I don't even know what I don't know at this point :)

Offline FLS

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Re: Help with P47?
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2011, 02:59:38 PM »
You can fly the P-47 for general ACM training. Trainers are available at different times for 1v1 training in addition to the clinics and training events. I generally train Saturday mornings ET.

Offline jododger

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Re: Help with P47?
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2011, 02:21:10 AM »
#1) If you are on a JUG and he tail slides to kill you its not a HO.....
#2) hmmm.....  nevermind, baby steps
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Offline ML52

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Re: Help with P47?
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2011, 04:42:33 PM »
JUGgler would you please explain the thinking for setting your guns for such a wide convergence range? Are you doing this because you never go after bombers? I do take the odd shot or two at buffs and find that I need all rounds hitting the same place.

Offline JUGgler

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Re: Help with P47?
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2011, 11:22:11 AM »
JUGgler would you please explain the thinking for setting your guns for such a wide convergence range? Are you doing this because you never go after bombers? I do take the odd shot or two at buffs and find that I need all rounds hitting the same place.

Blame it on the silly brewster, I've found in a close grinder with small turny dork rides  :) "all guns" at 300 sometimes converge past the target. My "window" to PWN said dork rides is very small, if I miss a couple crossing shots I'm pretty much screwed. I decided to spread them out so they act more like a shotgun. Converging incrimentally at 25 yds doesn't seem to be too far apart. My gunnery is off at the moment but I think it's cause I've been flyin the jet quite a bit. Still not sold on the new convergence setting but I will keep at it and decide to keep it or go back soon!
 I'm an "opportunist bomber killer" I do not hunt them, I would much rather turn fight brewsters then go after bombers  :aok


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« Last Edit: March 22, 2011, 11:25:03 AM by JUGgler »
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Offline BnZs

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Re: Help with P47?
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2011, 12:23:08 PM »

In the D11, D25 or the M sometimes I will take 75% - 100% respectively as I've found the added weight helps with E retention on these 3 JUGS. E retention is not a problem with the D40 or the N. The down side here is you will turn poorly but vs E monsters like corsairs it helps get angles in the initial stages of the fight IF your opponent is of poor to average quality  ;)


This just ain't so Jug-there have been posts on the forum with the math to explain it before-but the gist is that adding weight to your plane hurts, rather than helps E retention. (It does NOT work the same as using heavier bullets in a rifle for more energy retention down range.)
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline JUGgler

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Re: Help with P47?
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2011, 01:11:28 PM »
This just ain't so Jug-there have been posts on the forum with the math to explain it before-but the gist is that adding weight to your plane hurts, rather than helps E retention. (It does NOT work the same as using heavier bullets in a rifle for more energy retention down range.)

Maybe it is in my mind, but for ME I'd rather be heavy vs an average corsair "for example" then light. I find the "zoom" potential is improved. I agree that "heavier" is worse in general and for E retention, but using high energy state and zoom to manipulate the fight has more to it then just pure E retention  IMO.


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Offline Warty

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Re: Help with P47?
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2011, 11:25:32 PM »
oops. posted this here, but meant to put it in the "i love p47M" thread over in general.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2011, 11:31:17 PM by Warty »

Offline BnZs

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Re: Help with P47?
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2011, 11:40:06 PM »
Maybe it is in my mind, but for ME I'd rather be heavy vs an average corsair "for example" then light. I find the "zoom" potential is improved. I agree that "heavier" is worse in general and for E retention, but using high energy state and zoom to manipulate the fight has more to it then just pure E retention  IMO.


JUGgler

Do some searches for the pertinent threads...I'm too lazy...gist is, it's been tested, charts have been posted, load a plane heavier, unloaded zoom climb decreases. Now having a lower drag *in relation to weight* than the next plane is great, all things being equal, however, the ratio of thrust vrs. weight and drag of the airframe is far more important. Now if the airframes were being shot straight up out of a cannon at the same velocity with the engines shut off, then yes, the heavier Jug would probably zoom higher, however, that tactic is rarely used in the MA.  :noid
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline Stoney

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Re: Help with P47?
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2011, 12:36:07 AM »
Maybe it is in my mind, but for ME I'd rather be heavy vs an average corsair "for example" then light. I find the "zoom" potential is improved. I agree that "heavier" is worse in general and for E retention, but using high energy state and zoom to manipulate the fight has more to it then just pure E retention  IMO.


JUGgler

Just to confirm what BnZ said, you want to fight the Jug as light as possible.  Higher weight is nothing but a performance penalty, regardless of what you perceive.  In all models, regardless of total fuel quantity, I like to be at about half a tank in a fight.  Anything more than that and it wants to mush.  Luckily, that gas guzzler up front will help you get there in a hurry.  That being said, I usually take off with 75% in all models but the D-11, where I take 100%.  But, that's accounting for the fuel I use climbing up and cruising to the fight.  Learn to get back to base with 1/8th of a tank, and when you're at 1/4 tank or so, all models really start to get nimble, relatively speaking, especially once you've blown through half your ammo or so (because you're carrying several hundred pounds of ammo as well).  With all the extra power, I really like fighting Ns and Ms at 1/4 tank--they can really power through a hard turn until they get completely out of E.

I personally set my convergence at 300 on all guns, unless I'm doing some dedicated buff hunting, then I push them out to 400.  That being said, the most lethal guy I know in a Jug, Wolfala, likes a shotgun spread on his Jug, starting at 375 and increasing each pair by 25 yards up to 450 on the last pair.  So, I'd say do what works best for you.

Remember that 7,000 feet gives you enough altitude to accelerate to 500mph in a dive, which will allow you to escape most everything else that's not already doing 500mph.  Never use more than 3 notches of flaps in the beginning.  If you can't get the shot with 3 notches, you're probably not going to get it.  

The Jug has a ton of rudder authority, and sometimes I'll actually skid inside of a turn to get a shot against something I can't quite out turn.  About the only things you can out turn are 190s and P-51s, so don't try that until you get savvy enough.  

When doing classic BnZ, make sure your zoom climbs are unloaded.  Pull a few G's to get your nose up, relax the stick, and then let Pratt and Whitney do the rest.  I recommend never letting your airspeed get lower than 200-250 indicated during the zoom before you level off or get the nose back down to recover speed.  The Jug really wallows at low speed, so to preserve some maneuverability at the top of the zoom, spare some airspeed.

Against bombers, use very high angle 6 o'clock attacks.  Executed properly, the top gunner positions can't track you as you drop almost vertically into the formation.  The caliber .50 works best against the bomber wing roots to start fuel fires instead of pumping rounds into the fuselage.

Last, stay as fast as possible as long as possible the whole time you're up.  Always have some airspeed held in reserve during this beginning period--it will save your bacon if you get jumped.
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Offline JUGgler

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Re: Help with P47?
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2011, 10:09:33 AM »

Remember that 7,000 feet gives you enough altitude to accelerate to 500mph in a dive, which will allow you to .


 :huh


Most of my fine artistry is performed below 500'  :aok



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Offline JUGgler

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Re: Help with P47?
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2011, 10:13:39 AM »
 That being said, the most lethal guy I know in a Jug, Wolfala


Umm,  I think YUCCA and NOMDE are on top of the JUG ladder, YUCCA getting a slight edge for his "slow" control of the beast  IMHO <-- "very humble opinion"   :t



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