Fun with WWI planes and the E6B

[BnZs]

Some figures I came up with, just for general interest....    

                  Wing Area       Horsepower             Weight                           Wing Loading   Power loading        
Camel      231 square feet       130                      1339@25% fuel              5.8 lbs/foot      .097 hp/lb!  
Dr.1        201 square feet       110                      1235@50%                    6.14                 .089
D.VII       217 square feet       170(MercedesD.IIIa)2051@50%                    9.45                .083


               Drag Area               Horsepower        ratio horsepower/drag area          
Camel      8.73 square feet       130                    14.9
Dr.1        6.69                         110                   16.44

[Karnak]

Those numbers seem odd in comparison to performance in AH.  The F.1 Camel in AH is a dog compared to the DR.1.

[BnZs]

Those numbers seem odd in comparison to performance in AH.  The F.1 Camel in AH is a dog compared to the DR.1.

Yes, this is VERY odd Karnak.

Let's assume most Dr1 drivers are starting out with only 25%, which only gives 13 minutes flight time with 2.0 burn. That means the plane weighs 1205, which gives us the following figures:

Wing Loading                                              Power loading
6 lbs/foot                                                   .091 lbs/foot

Still no clear margin of superiority.

Edit: Although I would be happy if I could just get our Camel to spin to the right/do a brisk hammerhead. It will flat plate to the ground like a leaf but not develop much rotation, and the break over the top during the latter maneuver is so agonizingly slow it removes much of its value.

                                              

[Krusty]

The numbers don't take into account drag, or wing design/efficiency, or quirks/problems (i.e. not being able to roll one way unless you chop throttle).

Nice when "all things being equal" but in the case of the WW1 planes nothing else is equal to compare it to.

[BnZs]

The numbers don't take into account drag, or wing design/efficiency, or quirks/problems (i.e. not being able to roll one way unless you chop throttle).

Nice when "all things being equal" but in the case of the WW1 planes nothing else is equal to compare it to.

Climb rates and acceleration are almost entirely decided by power/weight, is this not so?

As for turning, yes airfoil cl makes a large difference. Be interesting to compare power-on stall speeds of these two birds, since that is a given indicator.

[Wmaker]

And this puts their wingloadings at 6.46lbs/sqft for the Dr.I and 6.30lbs/sqft for the Camel.

Wingloadings with full fuel:

Dr.I: 6.46lbs/sqft

Camel: 6.30lbs/sqft


This is why wingloading figures alone shouldn't used when comparing maneuverability:

A pic depicting the Göttingen 298 used in the Dr.I:


The airfoil used in the Camel, third from the top:


Dr.I uses overall much more efficient airfoil which creates more lift in relation to its drag. One thing of course is the interference between wings of the Dr.I and how much it negates this advantage but it doesn't surprise me that Dr.I has a smaller turning radius.

[hitech]

Climb rates and acceleration are almost entirely decided by power/weight, is this not so?

Not necessarily so in fixed pitch props.

HiTech

[BnZs]

Not necessarily so in fixed pitch props.

HiTech

Ah yes...I've noticed that the Dr1 seems to be closer to its redline RPMs in level flight than the Camel.

That being said, I should like to replace the "cruise" prop on my Camel with a "climb" prop. I'll get to work with the axe and draw-knife immediately...

[FLS]

Edit: Although I would be happy if I could just get our Camel to spin to the right/do a brisk hammerhead. It will flat plate to the ground like a leaf but not develop much rotation, and the break over the top during the latter maneuver is so agonizingly slow it removes much of its value.

                                              

Are you pulling the stick straight back to induce the gyro rotation? I find that it gets around pretty well.

[BnZs]

Are you pulling the stick straight back to induce the gyro rotation? I find that it gets around pretty well.

Straight back, full right rudder, slow. Or get the plane nose up, full stick forward and full left rudder also. It will do a neat hammerhead, but not with the kind of pop you'd expect from the gyro enhancement you are getting. And the spins are singularly non-spinny.

[FLS]

You probably also want to compare the drag coefficients.

F1    .0378
Dr1  .0323

I've read that while the Dr1 and F1 had similar climb rates the Dr1 climbed at a steeper angle. I haven't made the time to test this in game yet.

I do think the gyro on the F1 is correct since you can almost spin it around in place.

[BnZs]

You probably also want to compare the drag coefficients.

F1    .0378
Dr1  .0323

I've read that while the Dr1 and F1 had similar climb rates the Dr1 climbed at a steeper angle. I haven't made the time to test this in game yet.

I do think the gyro on the F1 is correct since you can almost spin it around in place.

I can't get it into a spin, or at least not a very fast spin, and I only can get rotation to the left in a spin. Repeat, very slow rotation. This is me *trying* to spin. From the manual I read it was supposed to enter a spin un-intentionally when turning to the right with frightening ease. D.VII hammers just as quickly if not more so to *either* direction as the Camel does to the right, presumably taking full advantage of gyro.

[321BAR]

I can't get it into a spin, or at least not a very fast spin, and I only can get rotation to the left in a spin. Repeat, very slow rotation. This is me *trying* to spin. From the manual I read it was supposed to enter a spin un-intentionally when turning to the right with frightening ease. D.VII hammers just as quickly if not more so to *either* direction as the Camel does to the right, presumably taking full advantage of gyro.

these problems such as the DR.I flight modeling, the camel's gyro, etc are why i don't fly there at the moment.

[morfiend]

BnZ,


   I'm curious at what alts your trying to do this at?

  Have you taken either plane up above 10K and tried this out,I think you'll see a considerable different trying to turn and spin above 10,15k would even be better but it takes forever to climb that high.....



     

[FLS]

I can't get it into a spin, or at least not a very fast spin, and I only can get rotation to the left in a spin. Repeat, very slow rotation. This is me *trying* to spin. From the manual I read it was supposed to enter a spin un-intentionally when turning to the right with frightening ease. D.VII hammers just as quickly if not more so to *either* direction as the Camel does to the right, presumably taking full advantage of gyro.

Sorry I didn't mean that type of spin. I meant the Camel practically pivots when it skids right from the gyro.  Of course your momentum isn't going to change directions and flying sideways for a bit while you rotate is a giant air brake so it seems normal that you would have 0 airspeed after a max gyro turn.

Did you mean Dr1 instead of DVII? There isn't much gyro for the DVII to take advantage of.