P63

[Mystery]

HUH fastest climbing...fastest rolling... second best turn..... late war monster... period.


Still should be near last if not last plane added.

Well....as always there are details and then there are details. To illustrate, here's some loadout information:


ibid
The climb, turn and speed data listed previously are undoubtedly in the configuration WITHOUT the two underwing .50 cal gondolas - which would dampen the performance quite a bit. Think Bf-109 G14 with the underwing 20mm's vs. without.
And as much as I'd like to say the rocket option was with zero-length 5" HVAR's - nope, it's the 4.5" M8's with underwing tubes.

[Mystery]

Then there's acceleration:


ibid

A bit surprising and again, that's most likely without the underwing .50 cal gondolas. But it also lists the P-63 at 1500hp combat power, not the correct 1800hp.

[Saxman]

The order of Battle of those involved in August Storm was done by George Mellinger who has been in the Soviet archives.

Isn't it significant, then, that Mellinger didn't say anything about this incident more conclusive than the same "It has been mentioned" story we've seen elsewhere?

The problem with just having an Order of Battle for that week is it doesn't necessarily mean they actually saw combat. Most of what was posted earlier in this thread about that period is that many of those units were still transitioning into the type from other machines, so they may not have been combat ready yet. Also compare the P-51H, which was also in-theater and flew sorties to familiarize pilots with the type, but never actually engaged in combat.

The burden of proof hasn't changed: Just being in the theater before Japan's capitulation isn't enough (otherwise the 51H and F7F would be in without debate as well). Someone has to show DEFINITIVELY that the P-63 actually saw combat.

[AWwrgwy]

The burden of proof hasn't changed: Just being in the theater before Japan's capitulation isn't enough (otherwise the 51H and F7F would be in without debate as well). Someone has to show DEFINITIVELY that the P-63 actually saw combat.

The sameargument can be used to include the two YP-80s in Italy as well. They flew in a Combat Theater.

What Saxman is trying to say is, as far as the "evidence" goes, a P-63 allegedly shot down a Ki-something. Otherwise, it was just flying around in a Combat Theater.

Is there any other info of Soviet operations in Manchuria in general otherwise. I know they were there but nothing other.


wrongway

[Guppy35]

Isn't it significant, then, that Mellinger didn't say anything about this incident more conclusive than the same "It has been mentioned" story we've seen elsewhere?

The problem with just having an Order of Battle for that week is it doesn't necessarily mean they actually saw combat. Most of what was posted earlier in this thread about that period is that many of those units were still transitioning into the type from other machines, so they may not have been combat ready yet. Also compare the P-51H, which was also in-theater and flew sorties to familiarize pilots with the type, but never actually engaged in combat.

The burden of proof hasn't changed: Just being in the theater before Japan's capitulation isn't enough (otherwise the 51H and F7F would be in without debate as well). Someone has to show DEFINITIVELY that the P-63 actually saw combat.

Fair enough.  Now I have to know for sure.  Got the David Glantz book "August Storm' ordered now

There will be an answer to be found

[Guppy35]

The sameargument can be used to include the two YP-80s in Italy as well. They flew in a Combat Theater.

What Saxman is trying to say is, as far as the "evidence" goes, a P-63 allegedly shot down a Ki-something. Otherwise, it was just flying around in a Combat Theater.

Is there any other info of Soviet operations in Manchuria in general otherwise. I know they were there but nothing other.


wrongway

I don't think the P80s are a fair comparison as we're talking 2 that were assigned to the 1st FG, not 6 complete units of P80s like the Soviets had on August 1, 45 for their operations against the Japanese.  How much those birds got used against the Japanese is certainly open to question, but it's a bit different in my eyes  to a couple of pre-production  birds going to a unit for the combat pilots to check out.

[Mystery]

Fair enough.  Now I have to know for sure.  Got the David Glantz book "August Storm' ordered now

There will be an answer to be found

Guppy, you da man 

[AWwrgwy]

I don't think the P80s are a fair comparison as we're talking 2 that were assigned to the 1st FG, not 6 complete units of P80s like the Soviets had on August 1, 45 for their operations against the Japanese.  How much those birds got used against the Japanese is certainly open to question, but it's a bit different in my eyes  to a couple of pre-production  birds going to a unit for the combat pilots to check out.

I agree. I'm stretching it to the breaking point. But, we have six units of P-63s and the only word of them is a pair allegedly shooting down a single Japanese aircraft.

Ground support? Anything else? Any other air operations?

Bueller?


wrongway

[Guppy35]

I agree. I'm stretching it to the breaking point. But, we have six units of P-63s and the only word of them is a pair allegedly shooting down a single Japanese aircraft.

Ground support? Anything else? Any other air operations?

Bueller?


wrongway

Not an answer, but it appears the first Soviet Pilot to die in a 63 was Major N.M. Schenchenko, on December 24, 1944.  He was part of the 1st Ferrying Regiment and was lost in bad weather.  This was part of the 2,397 KingCobras sent to the USSR.  They got roughly 4000 P39s.

The December 24, 1944 date does beg to question though, what was done with those 63s that were being delivered at least from December 44 on.  I'm hard pressed to believe they sat in a depot somewhere prior to the end of the war, in particular against Japan.

The loss is noted in "Cobras over the Tundra" by Everett Long that is about the Alaska Siberia Ferry pilots.  The book is interesting in that it is printed in both Russian and English.

The numbers sent to Russia are from:
"Cobras over the Tundra" and "Cobra!-Bell Aircraft Corperation 1934-46" by Birch Matthews   The first lists 2397 and the latter lists 2400 KingCobras.   I imagine one doesn't include those lost in transit.

[Guppy35]

Gotta admit she is a nice looking bird

[Guppy35]

I want this one

[Mystery]

Ground support? Anything else? Any other air operations?

Bueller?

wrongway

"Re-equipment of Soviet Air Force units with the Kingcobra continued after the end of the war in Europe. The type was used in combat against Japan at the Far East and Trans-Baikal Fronts. The 12th Air Army of the latter Front had its 245th (940th and 781th IAPs) and 190th (17th and 21 IAPs) IADs equipped with Kingcobras. ...Other Soviet P-63-equipped units in the Far East in the summer of 1945 were the Kamtschatka-based 128th SAD (888th and 410th IAPs - the latter having been equipped with Il-2s before as the 410th ShAP) and parts of the 7th IAD of the Pacific Ocean Fleet. In July 1945 the 128th SAD supported the Soviet landings on Shimushu (Kuriles). "
Source: "The complete Book of Fighters" W. Green and G. Swanborough

[Mystery]

Ground support? Anything else? Any other air operations?

Bueller?

wrongway

Soviet air force support of the Kuriles invasion:
 
    "The Soviet air cover and support for the Shimushu landings were provided by the 128 SAD, their 888 IAP had the P-63 Kingcobra, which they had received only in August 1945, before that they remained the last active Soviet fighter regiment with the I-16.  The 410 ShAP, also of the same division also had converted to the P-63, in their case from the Il-2 (It is uncertain but possible that they may have been redesignated as 410 IAP.).  The third regiment in the division flew a mixture of A-20 and SB bombers, and a few PV-1s which had been interned prior to August 1945.
    The naval torpedo bomber unit was the 2 MTAD (division), consisting of the 4 MTAP (Il-4 & DB-3), 49 MTAP (Il-4, A-20G, & A-20H), & 52 MTAP (DB-3).   Source: AERIAL ACTIONS OVER KURILES (AUGUST 1945)
by Gabriel Garrido

[Guppy35]

By coincidence I checked the mail today and the book "August Storm: Soviet Tactical and Operational Combat in Manchuria, 1945" by LTC David Glantz was already here.  Sadly it doesn't mention specific aircraft by types, but does emphasize the use of tactical airpower in support of the operations.  1,500,000 ground troops in the assault against the Japanese.  The fight lasted 7 days.  In just one section of the fight, the Soviets acknowledged 32,000 dead. 

Guess it wasn't a mop up, little affair against the Japanese.  Gonna have to look elsewhere for KingCobra specifics with the Soviets, but clearly there was something of a fight where they were a part of the order of battle.  While it may not have been a huge air to air war, clearly air to ground was a big deal.

[Guppy35]

I know some of the anti Kingcobra crowd won't be happy about this, but I remembered that Hitech had in fact produced a P63C and it has been sitting on my shelf for years now.