Author Topic: Smash and Grab  (Read 7061 times)

Offline BaldEagl

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10791
Smash and Grab
« on: April 02, 2011, 12:27:37 PM »
Why so many posts on hordeing and smash and grab tactics?  It really only makes sense.

If 10 players fly five minutes to get to a base to try and capture it, as soon as one is shot down, there are only nine players remaining for the next five minutes.  If a single defender gets shot down he can re-up immediately, so a 10 man defense will quickly take the numerical advantage.  That means the attackers will want to come with a numbers advantage. 

The actual number can't be easily determined.  The attackers need to maintain equal or greater numbers for a five minute period adjusted for losses unless they're all superior pilots; but we know that these types of missions don't draw that type of pilot so the numeric advantage has to go even higher.  On the other hand the defensive players often are superior pilots compounding the effect.  How many "I love to fight he hoardes for easy kills" posts do you read on these boards?

Suddenly your 10 man mission needs to be 20 or 30 to account for both flight time and relative skill on both sides of the confrontation.  As a side note it's no wonder there are mega-squads.

Those who complain about hordeing/smash and grab often cite that they can't organize enough defenders soon enough.  The base starts to blink 12.5 miles out for the attackers.  If one pilots ups against a ten man mission the moment radar is broken and both he and the attackers can maintain 350 mph that means 11.7 miles will be traversed or that the defender will meet the horde about halfway between the base and the edge of the radar ring.  This doesn't account for climbing but we know many of these missions are low level, otherwise you'd have had ample warning by dar bar.

Now, if our stalwart superior single defender gets two kills before he's swarmed, two more defenders up while he's in the initial fight and he re-ups immediately after towering they'll meet the remaining eight attackers before they ever reach the field.  If each of these three defenders gets two kills then dies the mission is a bust.  1:3 odds take out the mission in this example.

Of course these first defenders buy time.  As we know, as the dar bars grow more people are attracted; more defenders and more attackers but it only took one guy to start the defense.  By that figuring only three players could provide a meaningful start to a defense against most hordes.

I think the real problem is no one's willing to up and fly into the horde because they're too worried about their score.
I edit a lot of my posts.  Get used to it.

Offline EskimoJoe

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4831
Re: Smash and Grab
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2011, 12:34:58 PM »
You have to admit most players aren't twirps who sit in the tower all
day waiting for a base to flash. Most probably won't notice a base
start blinking until it's too late if they're caught up in a fight and nobody
reports it.
Put a +1 on your geekness atribute  :aok

Offline 68ZooM

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6337
Re: Smash and Grab
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2011, 12:35:18 PM »
ever think people are getting tired of defending hordes, it does get old
UrSelf...Pigs On The Wing...Retired

Was me, I bumped a power cord. HiTEch

Offline caldera

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6437
Re: Smash and Grab
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2011, 12:53:02 PM »
Even if the defender spawns on the runway at the moment of radar warning, he still has to take off and build speed (unless you know of some insta-350mph bot).  NOE smash and grabs can be very near the base by the time the first defender gets airborne.  I don't even bother trying to up in such cases.  Not for fear of score, but simply handing out a free kill to one lucky tard out of the whole bunch is only rewarding him to do it again. 
"Then out spake brave Horatius, the Captain of the gate:
 To every man upon this earth, death cometh soon or late.
 And how can man die better, than facing fearful odds.
 For the ashes of his fathers and the temples of his Gods."

Offline redwing7

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 288
Re: Smash and Grab
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2011, 01:00:50 PM »
You have to admit most players aren't twirps who sit in the tower all
day waiting for a base to flash. Most probably won't notice a base
start blinking until it's too late if they're caught up in a fight and nobody
reports it.
I think a very high percentage are reported on country. I never sit in the tower waiting but I will bail if I'm not in a fight to defend, but that goes back to what BE said about some people caring about their score.

ever think people are getting tired of defending hordes, it does get old

Ever think people get tired of reading whines about it? I personally think the "whine and cry" is more prevalent on these boards than the "smash and grab" is in the MA.


Bottom line is;


IF YOU AIN'T HAVING FUN IN THIS GAME IT'S YOUR FAULT

 :cheers:
THUNDER MOB

"and when they bury me, may it be face down...so all my critics can kiss my ass!"  Bobby Knight

Offline moot

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 16333
      • http://www.dasmuppets.com
Re: Smash and Grab
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2011, 01:32:58 PM »
The arithmetic is way more variable than that..  It assumes the attack group is low alt.  Assumes there's one defender, assumes he/they get kills or get swarmed quickly; the timing actually varies.  Assumes that little fight doesn't carry on for a while, maybe even in a stalemate.  Assumes more defenders show up proportionate to dar bar.. That's really not always the case.  Most often the opposite happens when the show of force (as far as you can read from clipboard map) is convincing enough, people recognize the base as a write-off and don't bother.

All of these are arguably nit picks but altogether you get way more variability and can't conclusively say that it's mostly about score.  And possibly that in more than a few cases it's not worthwhile to up - like one of the Arabian Knights says in another active thread on this topic, it's no real feat to take a base by brute force.  That skill you admit as a factor for defenders can also exist in the attackers.  A properly done attack (air superiority fighters paired up as wingmen, ground attackers flying in correct formation IE not in single file so that ack is evenly distributed, etc etc) should almost guarantee that an equal-sized defense that scrambles (realistically, not everyone's permanently in tower waiting for these attacks) a little after the radar alert will be beat because of that advantage: the same way a "mere" two squaddies dead immediately after merge in a 10v10 squad match makes for a major change in odds which just keeps on compounding from then on.
Quote
Suddenly your 10 man mission needs to be 20 or 30 to account for both flight time and relative skill
Why not 50 or 70 instead of 20-30?  There's a "fun" sweet spot that's muted to nothing, the more you overwhelm with numbers.  Both for the defenders (bee swarm from hell effect) and for attackers (over the shoulder shooting saturation).  This sweet spot is very low on the "Swarmers" priorities.  Vulgarly put, that's "hording".  It's the "War" end of the game spectrum.  The game is meant to be fun.  But AH isn't just a game but a competitive game.  So it allows some unfairness (if you have the skill and/or craftiness to find and exploit potential unfair advantage IE tactics and/or strategy) which moves it towards "war".

The un-fun ness of smash and grab has two things (just to pick two) going on:
There's not really any long term memory to countries, unless they organize.  You'll have the organized side with a strategic plan, whereas the unorganized side is totally reactive IE all tactics.  The problem is you can't reasonably expect a side to spontaneously organize against the side that first initiated organized combat, not unless that "reactive" side is made of players who know each other well enough and work together naturally enough - the optimal example is a squad.  
Next, there's a minimized leeway allowed to the defenders that's one of the fundamental factors in how fun a game (any game) is.  An extremely un-fun kind of game is the twitchy FPS games like Counter Strike or Modern Warfare where you have literally fractions of a second to react and "do the right thing" so that you're fighting and not dying.  So that you're actually countering the attack IE playing the game rather than being sent to tower before you can even finish your first ACM.  In those knife-edge FPS games you basically have no real depth and breadth of interaction with the player you're playing against. 

Of course an uncompromising plan for success will deny any and all possible useful reaction to "the enemy", and that's what I mean by "war".  That's not about having fun first but about winning first.  Winning doesn't require at all that the enemy have any fun.

If anyone has played the old PS1 game "Bushido Blade", they'll see the analogy with how you couldn't win that game by just smash and grabbing the opponent and cleaving his melon in two right off the bat.  You have to earn the victory by actually facing the opponent.  No victory without peril.  The fun of a peril-less victory in AH is something you can get from any offline or coop-vs-AI game.  A genuine winning strategic and tactical plan in AH will effectively remove and deny the opponent players from the equation.

And in that case, why bother playing a multiplayer game?
« Last Edit: April 02, 2011, 01:59:44 PM by moot »
Hello ant
running very fast
I squish you

Offline oTRALFZo

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 941
Re: Smash and Grab
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2011, 01:43:07 PM »
Has nothing to do with score. I will up from a semi-capped or even capped feild occasionaly. Knowing I will have an entire airforce chasing me gives freindlies/squaddies time to even up the odds.
I've chased cons that shown extreme timid behavoir a full sector and even if they try to drag me through their ack, the one or two times you do manage to get them makes it all worth it.

Anyone who says that hordes start fights and create interaction within players is just blowing it out their A**. All too many times when there is just a tiny bit of sign of even less than average defense, the attackers (especially the 10 star generals that started the gaggle) pack up their bags and move on to a more enticing less defended target. More often than not, you will see them use this as a tactic to plan their next attack. If thats not a ball-less girly way to start fights, then I dont know what is.

20 newbs getting together because they havent honed their skills yet and want some fun doesnt bother me. Its the pied piepers that have been here years that only use the new guys as cannon fodder to achieve their own goals that I get a kick out of.
****Let the beatings begin***


in game name: Tralfaz

Offline EagleDNY

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1514
Re: Smash and Grab
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2011, 02:12:27 PM »
Defense vs the horde can take many forms.  It still takes TIME to take those bases.  How many guys have to up to start denying troops or ord to the horde?  How many times do we see a couple of 262s come in to hunt goons?  I've lost count of how many times I've seen one set of buffs take out a CV and end that horde.   

Offline Rob52240

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3770
      • My AH Films
Re: Smash and Grab
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2011, 04:36:08 PM »
Busting up a "horde" is fun.
If I had a gun with 3 bullets and I was locked in a room with Bin Laden, Hitler, Saddam and Zipp...  I would shoot Zipp 3 times.

Offline The Fugitive

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17921
      • Fugi's Aces Help
Re: Smash and Grab
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2011, 06:25:54 PM »
Take the same 10 guys, put 3 in buffs, 2 as heavy fighters, 4 light fighters, and 1 in a goon.

Climb to alt, 10k atleast. Use a good approach to carpet bomb town, one pass should be enough to get a white flag even if they are newbies. Two hvy fighters drop the VH, and become low cap harassing those that up. The 4 light fighters are high cap to cover the goon. Once you have a white flag high cap drops to push the defenders back. If they get them back enough goon drops in and drops troops.

Coming in high increases the time needed for the defenders to get high enough to be effective, giving more time to get the town and VH down. The mission can still be a quick grab as long as everyone does their part of the mission. Will it be the same walk in the park the "smash and grab" mission are now, some times, but those other times it will have the challenge a "game" is suppose to have.

If you have 20-30 guys, do two bases, make the defenders choose. Sure maybe you'll only get one capture, but is that the end of the world? I don't think so.

Offline ROX

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2209
Re: Smash and Grab
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2011, 06:28:42 PM »
Take the same 10 guys, put 3 in buffs, 2 as heavy fighters, 4 light fighters, and 1 in a goon.

Climb to alt, 10k atleast. Use a good approach to carpet bomb town, one pass should be enough to get a white flag even if they are newbies. Two hvy fighters drop the VH, and become low cap harassing those that up. The 4 light fighters are high cap to cover the goon. Once you have a white flag high cap drops to push the defenders back. If they get them back enough goon drops in and drops troops.

Coming in high increases the time needed for the defenders to get high enough to be effective, giving more time to get the town and VH down. The mission can still be a quick grab as long as everyone does their part of the mission. Will it be the same walk in the park the "smash and grab" mission are now, some times, but those other times it will have the challenge a "game" is suppose to have.

If you have 20-30 guys, do two bases, make the defenders choose. Sure maybe you'll only get one capture, but is that the end of the world? I don't think so.


Please go run that mission 10 times and please come back and tell us your sucess ratio.

Thanks!

Offline The Fugitive

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17921
      • Fugi's Aces Help
Re: Smash and Grab
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2011, 06:34:42 PM »

Please go run that mission 10 times and please come back and tell us your sucess ratio.

Thanks!

Who says it has to work ALL the time? Do they cut off one of you b@lls if you don't take a base? I"m sure it would work twice as good as coming in low with the same 10 guys BE mentioned. Sure it's great to "win da warz!", but I always thought it was more fun to earn the win than it is to just roll over a base with a horde.

Offline ROX

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2209
Re: Smash and Grab
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2011, 06:47:25 PM »
Who says it has to work ALL the time? Do they cut off one of you b@lls if you don't take a base? I"m sure it would work twice as good as coming in low with the same 10 guys BE mentioned. Sure it's great to "win da warz!", but I always thought it was more fun to earn the win than it is to just roll over a base with a horde.

You will never "get it", will you.  Sad

Fugi...please put this in your sig:

"All of you are expected to fly slow, straight, do not evade so it's uber-easy for me to kill you, signed Fugitive".



PS, you are still here?  I thought you were running missions.

Offline The Fugitive

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17921
      • Fugi's Aces Help
Re: Smash and Grab
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2011, 07:29:20 PM »
Get what ROX? I have run thousands of missions here and in AWI-III. I know how they run. I understand tactics, strengths and weaknesses, miss direction, porking and yes even the strat system.

All I've ever said is that I want a fight. Diving head long into a horde can only keep you occupied a short while. If people were posting missions with multiple wings, giving instruction/orders that were more than "bomb anything thats up then vulch until the goon gets in" I'd join mission after mission with out a problem, and I'm sure other would too.

Most of todays players don't have the skill to pull off a 10 player mission any more. So to substitute for skill they add numbers. With the numbers they now run in most also say "why learn anything else, this works". So game play has become less about skill and more about numbers.

But hey, I'm ok with that. I've been doing this for over a dozen years. I'll hang around and play the way everyone else wants me to play and learn to have fun with it that way.

Offline killnu

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3056
Re: Smash and Grab
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2011, 08:25:54 PM »

Please go run that mission 10 times and please come back and tell us your sucess ratio.

Thanks!

I would guarantee 100% success ratio...of having fun.
Karma, it follows you every where you go...

++The Blue Knights++