So heres whats wrong with the WWI...

[FLS]

Uh, no. There are no problems at all in that regard. And its not some vague "have problems" new pilots were warned about, its entering a spin.

Post a video of the Camel spinning. The closest I can get is a slo-mo rotation to the left while the bird does its odd flat fall.


You will defend all flight models in AH to the death as accurate, until they are changed, at which point you will defend the new improved FM to the death, won't you?

I'll post a spin video when I get home.

You know that you can turn right and skid into the turn, lose your airspeed and fall until you start flying again or hit the ground. Most pilots would consider that a problem.

I'm not defending the flight model, I'm just criticizing the criticism.

[pervert]

I'll post a spin video when I get home.

You know that you can turn right and skid into the turn, lose your airspeed and fall until you start flying again or hit the ground. Most pilots would consider that a problem.

I'm not defending the flight model, I'm just criticizing the criticism.

Why skid? An F1's best chance in a turn fight (and lets face it when a DR1 cannot win by other methods it always goes into a straight turn fight) is to take a higher line than the DR1 and let him yank away all his E using rudder and elevator. The only way an F1 can win is by maintaining his E while pressuring the DR1 to burn all his, this means no rudder in the turn and minimal use of elevators to build an advantage.

[FLS]

Why skid? An F1's best chance in a turn fight (and lets face it when a DR1 cannot win by other methods it always goes into a straight turn fight) is to take a higher line than the DR1 and let him yank away all his E using rudder and elevator. The only way an F1 can win is by maintaining his E while pressuring the DR1 to burn all his, this means no rudder in the turn and minimal use of elevators to build an advantage.

I wasn't recommending a skid per se.  We were talking about the pilot manual cautioning pilots on right turns.

You can use precession to skid around to the right but you lose your airspeed so you want to be pretty vertical with enough altitude.

[Vinkman]

That's a reason not to do it? Maybe the Rise of Flight crowd would like a decent flight model and a server that can accommodate hundreds of people.

You skip the first part. The reason not to do it is because it wouldn't generate a payback for the investor, because WWI isn't MORE fun than WWII.  I think Your premise is that WWI is a different customer base, which would be additive to the WWII croud. That's the questionable part. IMO there is largely one flight-combat-sim croud and they are going to do one or the other. The WWII model and arena is a much bigger success with a much bigger fan base. Investing in that is a better bet.

I think this is generational too. Not too many airshows featuring WWI bi planes and pilots anymore. As time moves on, the older stuff gets left behind. WWII is kept alive because of all the shows on the various channels [We just never seem to get tired of watching Nazis apparently], and planes and pilots at Airshows.

The Korean campaing, and vietnam may be worth looking into because that generation of folks that were kids when it was happening, are getting into there 40s, which seems to be the age of many of the folks playing AH. Don't know if they would like the combat when they try it, but they will be interested in trying it.

respectfully,

Vinkman

[FLS]

Vinkman I think you're saying that it wouldn't be more fun for you.

[FLS]

BnZ here's the film.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/wqhdaqjtd3c4aaw/CamelSpin%20%282%29.ahf

[Sid]

Sid AH just has a flight model. I expect you've noticed that the Camel requires left rudder for coordinating both left and right turns which indicates that yaw and torque are properly modeled.

It indicates it's modeled, not that it's necessarily "properly modeled". I don't know the answer, that's why I'm asking.

Honest question for Hitech, is the rudder and the forces associated with it fully modeled in AH, or dumbed down to allow for player without rudders?

Post a video of the Camel spinning. The closest I can get is a slo-mo rotation to the left while the bird does its odd flat fall.

Are you using into spin aileron sir?

Without it, as you say the Camel likes to "slo-mo rotation to the left while the bird does its odd flat fall".

Camel-Flat-Spin.ahf

Best recovery: Full Right Rudder, Full Right Aileron, Full Forward Stick and Hold until it comes out (blipping the throttle sometimes helps).

If you use aileron in the direction of the spin, it spins fairly well.

Camel-Right-Spin.ahf

Although to the left it tends to take a bit longer to recover as the spin goes flat during the recovery.

Camel-Left-Spin.ahf

[FLS]

Sid have you ever seen a reference to anything in the flight model being dumbed down or reduced for game play reasons? We have auto take off and combat trim for players without rudder pedals. Why would we need more than that?

Has anyone ever posted that the slip angle didn't match the ball deflection or is it just that pushing spring loaded game controllers seated in a chair doesn't feel like pushing rudder pedals in a flying aircraft?

I don't know either, maybe Hitech will answer you. 

[BnZs]

I'll post a spin video when I get home.

You know that you can turn right and skid into the turn, lose your airspeed and fall until you start flying again or hit the ground. Most pilots would consider that a problem.

I'm not defending the flight model, I'm just criticizing the criticism.

I can bank right, pull back on the stick, and its just fine. Nose wants to go below horizon

Now to the LEFT, yes, the nose rising above the horizon can cause it to loose speed quick if you don't stamp it out.

[B-17]

Has anyone ever posted that the slip angle didn't match the ball deflection

yes, someone did, a little while ago, like about 1 week ago. i think

[Sid]

Sid have you ever seen a reference to anything in the flight model being dumbed down or reduced for game play reasons?

It was Fester's post that got me thinking about it in the first place: thoughts about need for rudder usage?, but specifically this post linked from another tread:

I have actual time, hundreds of hours in P40, Corsair F4U and B25.  I used to spend my time in the summer flying these birds to AirShows for an outfit on the East Coast here.  I think the models are pretty close in the game except for one area and that's the rudder.   It almost appears in the game as if there is an autorubber and the ball is seldom out of center.  That may be because if the planes in the game took as much work with stick and rudder as they do in real life,  no one would ever complete a flight or be able land without groundlooping

We have auto take off and combat trim for players without rudder pedals. Why would we need more than that?

These were "stick and rudder" aeroplanes, auto take off gets you airborne, combat trim keeps you trimmed out for straight and level flight. How do you fly a "stick and rudder" aeroplane through tight turns, loops, and spins with just the stick (or sometimes just a mouse)?

[FLS]

It was Fester's post that got me thinking about it in the first place: thoughts about need for rudder usage?, but specifically this post linked from another tread:

 
These were "stick and rudder" aeroplanes, auto take off gets you airborne, combat trim keeps you trimmed out for straight and level flight. How do you fly a "stick and rudder" aeroplane through tight turns, loops, and spins with just the stick (or sometimes just a mouse)?

I saw those posts Sid. I didn't see anything substantive in them.  Do you think you can't loop with your feet off the pedals? I'm not saying the model is perfect I'd just like to see somebody post what the error is. What degree of slip should show what ball position in a real warbird and what is it in AH? And let's not compare real Cessnas to AH Corsairs. Post your data.

[DREDIOCK]

When I think of a WWI flight 'sim' I think of 'wings' on Amiga. I loved that game, especially the background story which gave a deeper context on the battle that was going to be. Each battle was started with a 1 page story about the progress of the imaginary war, funny mentions about the squad pet dog etc.

I think HT was thinking something of similar fashion with the Combat Tour.

 

[DREDIOCK]

The problem with WWI is there's just not enough to do there.  The fighters are entertaining for a while and early on when it was heavily populated it was a blast but it needs some GV's, bombers and some sort of "war" mechanism to draw more people in.  

In a nutshell thats it. WWI arena has no depth. And from an eyecandy standpoint its only mediocre. Sorry, but eycandy does count or we'd still be satisfied with stick figure planes and pyramid mountains.
And for WWI aircraft where things arent moving at 300 MPH its even more important

 I think bombing tanks is a rather poor idea because they didnt do it in WWI that I have been able to find. Not to mention tanks themselves were a rather late arrival

[Sid]

What degree of slip should show what ball position in a real warbird and what is it in AH?

I've never mentioned "Ball Position" and I don't know which post this has come from. As far as I'm aware it's just a black glass ball sealed inside a curved glass tube that is partially filled with a liquid. It indicates "slip" or "skid", but I'm not sure what the calibration/relationship between slip angle and ball position/deflection is or should be.

What I did say about Side Slip was:

Certainly the amount of side slip I can generate with the rudder seems quite small to me (a very subjective comment I know, I freely admit to having never flown any of the aircraft currently modeled in Aces High).

By that I meant, the amount of Forward-Slip I can generate for a cross-controlled approach seems small to me in AH, but I also I freely admit to never having flown any of the aircraft currently modeled in Aces High

I'd just like to see somebody post what the error is.

I don’t know sir.

I read this post:

I have actual time, hundreds of hours in P40, Corsair F4U and B25.  I used to spend my time in the summer flying these birds to AirShows for an outfit on the East Coast here.  I think the models are pretty close in the game except for one area and that's the rudder.   It almost appears in the game as if there is an autorubber and the ball is seldom out of center.  That may be because if the planes in the game took as much work with stick and rudder as they do in real life,  no one would ever complete a flight or be able land without groundlooping

and then this post

Planes do not seem to rotate about their yaw axis easily in AH.

put two and two together and probably made five.

Post your data.

I don't have any data sir, that's why I'm trying to politely ask?