What to do after T+60 and no action

[Nefarious]

Just goes to show it's possible to have 400 people in 4 sectors.

Not to get too off-topic but while it may be possible to have 400 people in 4 sectors, In two of the BOG frames my computer took a significant hit frame rate wise and I had disappearing Icons and it cost me my virtual life.

We don't try to have that much in action in a certain area because of this.

[ghostdancer]

Actually the highest BoG per any frame was 328 people.

FR1 = 328
FR2 = 302
FR3 = 290
FR4 = 311
FR5 = 268
FR6 = 257

[Fencer51]

A credible force was allocated to strike A2. Unfortunately the larger of the two squads attacked the wrong target.

That explains that strange report that the factory was hit.. 

[Krusty]

I have a problem with the "spirit" of any rule as it leaves it up to anybodys interpretation.

Then you're going to hate the entirety of American law and civilization.

For FSO what you're suggesting is a loophole factory. There is a spirit and intent when these rules are put down in text. They are left unwritten as common knowledge until some few people abuse the event for their own gain and at the expense of other people participating.

That is when a rule is written down. Now, you can't go legal-ese and type out a 1000-page brief accounting for every variation and every minor loophole that somebody will no doubt try to exploit. Instead, you follow the spirit of the 1-line-rule and that's all you need.

[WxMan]

For FSO what you're suggesting is a loophole factory.

I'm not suggesting this, you are. I'm saying follow the strict adherence of the rule. It's much less complicated. You're the one suggesting that there should be loop holes. Don't misrepresent my words.

BTW I love American law and civilization. Most people know the rules/laws and follow them. It's just when you proceed to the "spirit" of the law, then you involve the lawyers and judges, because then you're in an area that eventually gets mucked up.

[Krusty]

Intent and spirit of the law are important. An educated ruling is far better than a strict literal adherence. It is this literal adherence that leads to loopholes. What does that word mean? Well if you read the whole thing and you know why the rule is in place, then you know it applies to X situation. But if you just read the thing itself without care for why it's in place, you could and would argue it doesn't apply to X situation. When if you ask the CMs they'd say "yeah, we made that rule because of X"....

So intent and spirit are very important with regards to the FSO rules.

[SlipKnt]

Nef is correct.

The squad in question is undergoing MAJOR changes in FSO admin.  The planner made an honest mistake and attacked the wrong target with 2 minutes to spare (T plus 58). 

After attacking the heck out of an undefended target, we egressed past A2 climbing right into the defensive CAP.  We pretty much engaged and died rather quickly.

Many were frustrated, but the new guy doing the planning was probably the most frustrated. 

It is a blunder for the books. 

The result is that I am back on as Admin for this squad and will be planning the next 2 frames.  I am trying to help establish a double check system to ensure the orders received are planned correctly and validated. 

Sorry guys at A2.  We arrived in the DAR ring at T plus 60 on our egress from the wrong target.  We did not know this had happened until after we were all killed off trying to escape.

 

We are good to go moving forward though.  Shouldn't happen again.

 

[WxMan]

It is this literal adherence that leads to loopholes.

         I hope you're not a lawyer.

So the adhering to the literal interpretation of the T+60 rule stating that a side will be penalized for not meeting its objective on time leads to loopholes?  I guess you're right because that is exactly what you're arguing for is a loophole to ignore the T+60 rule just so you may have some action at T+60++++++++++++++++. If that is the case, shouldn't you be arguing for the dissolution of that rule instead of a convoluted argument to get around it.

If you are a defender, it makes more sense to me to take the forfeiture of points and go hunting rather than waiting around the additional time. But if you would be happier sending texts to find out whether an attack is delayed or waiting an additional hour for it, far be it from me to water on your Lilly.

[ghostdancer]

Just to jump in here in regards to the T+60 rule. It is literal but also subject to judgement by CMs.

An attack on a target with a credible attack force (as defined by the CM) must be planned to happen by T+60. However, since a battle is fluid there are several circumstances that might not trigger the T+60 penalty after a CM evaluates circumstances:

1) The attack force was wiped out before it got to target.

2) The attack force was intercepted and its survivors hit their target soon after T+60.

3) The attack force incorrectly attacked the wrong target do to A) a mistake in orders from the CiC or B) a mistake in the objectives from the CM.


Each scenario requires the admin CM to dig and discover the truth of the matter and then make a call as whether the T+60 rule was violated.

In this case we had a case of 3B, part of the attacking force confused their orders from the CiC and hit a non target. Upshot of this was that the defenders didn't see action but also the attackers completely blew any chance of scoring points. Nef rule no penalthy because it was not a willful violation and they did attack the incorrect target by T+60. It was just an incorrect target.

So yes, many of FSO rules are literal but they also require judgments to be made since there are some nuances that revolve around intent versus outcome.

Another example would be the credible force rule. Lets say a credible force is deemed to be at least 11 pilots. So the CiC assigns a 11-15 squad to an attack mission. However, that 11-15 squad only turns out 9 people. The CiC followed the rules but the squad in question didn't turn out. There was no willful planning to violate the rule in this case. Versus say the CiC assigning a 7-10 squad to the mission who could only meet the 11 pilot minimum if they had full turnout +1.

[Nefarious]

If you are a defender, it makes more sense to me to take the forfeiture of points and go hunting rather than waiting around the additional time. But if you would be happier sending texts to find out whether an attack is delayed or waiting an additional hour for it, far be it from me to water on your Lilly.

I haven't added anything regarding DD's original post as of yet, but I have to agree here.

I would add to at least contact your CIC and tell him your intentions. So he can be kept abreast of the bigger picture and if he wants you to do otherwise, like head a different direction, then follow his orders.

[AKKuya]

This is what you do after T+60 defending a base and hasn't been attacked yet.









You regale those beautiful barmaids on how you bravely defended your base by scaring the enemy from attacking you.

[Viper61]

My turn:

I CIC'ed a frame several years back where I had a Strike package directly behind another.  Thought being let the first Strike Package open an hole and the second strike package will slip though and go to their target.  Well that didn't work and both Strike packages got hit and hit hard and tangled up in a large furball.  During the course of that the Ordnance carring AC dropped and defended themselves.  Needless to say the second target wasn't hit nor did the Strike Package even get close.  It was no ones fault in what happened.  The plan went bad during execution plain and simple.

Common sense moment I tuned channel 202 and announced to the CM what had happened.  And then turn back to fighting my battle.  The CM notified the other CIC and he released the defenders from that base.  All happening at about H+60.

CIC's have to control their piece of the battle from the start to the finish.  This includes coordinating and notifying the CM's when anything goes not to plan that would effect the game play.  Its the CIC's job to know, control and report.

If anything were to be done I would say having the CIC's "check in" with the CM on channel 202 for 30 seconds at H-10 to get the final guidance and coordination's out of the way would probably address this issue in the future.  This would allow the CM's to cover anything they needed to and remind the CIC's of their obligations.