Author Topic: FW190 vs. BF109: Turn Radius (2011)  (Read 21863 times)

Offline Stoney

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Re: FW190 vs. BF109: Turn Radius (2011)
« Reply #60 on: April 19, 2011, 08:57:26 AM »
Interesting side note: Stoney actually got the NACA sections i/b, o/b for the 190. It looked to me from that as though the 190 actually has aero "wash-in" - the tip section has a lower max alpha than the i/b section. No wonder the 190 had vicious tip stall.

They still designed in "washout"--its just that the planform and airfoil taper they used basically negated any benefit the washout created, and still resulted in a wing that would tip stall.  So, the effect is that, despite the washout that was constructed, the effect at stall was still "wash-in", if you want to call it that.  I'd prefer sticking to just saying "more conducive to tip stall".

@FLS, a constant-chord, constant thickness wing will theoretically stall at the same speed.  If that wing had washout as well, theoretically the root would stall before the wing tip.
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Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: FW190 vs. BF109: Turn Radius (2011)
« Reply #61 on: April 19, 2011, 09:18:08 AM »
They still designed in "washout"--its just that the planform and airfoil taper they used basically negated any benefit the washout created, and still resulted in a wing that would tip stall.  So, the effect is that, despite the washout that was constructed, the effect at stall was still "wash-in", if you want to call it that.  I'd prefer sticking to just saying "more conducive to tip stall".

I don't think so. We talked about this before. The D-9, for example, has a 23015.3 and a 23009 Naca secxtion, tip/root. When we compare alpha max for the two, we find max alpha tip is lower than root.
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Offline FLS

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Re: FW190 vs. BF109: Turn Radius (2011)
« Reply #62 on: April 19, 2011, 09:42:05 AM »
I can't say you're wrong Stoney. Maybe I'm not seeing tip stall as an issue because it occurs so close to departure. It seems like the down aileron will increase the lift on the wing resisting the torquewise rotation and if the opposite wing is losing roll authority first you can just reduce the angle on the still effective aileron. It seems like the roll occurs at departure and not from reduced roll authority from tip stall. Am I missing something?

Offline drgondog

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Re: FW190 vs. BF109: Turn Radius (2011)
« Reply #63 on: April 19, 2011, 09:43:55 AM »
They still designed in "washout"--its just that the planform and airfoil taper they used basically negated any benefit the washout created, and still resulted in a wing that would tip stall.  So, the effect is that, despite the washout that was constructed, the effect at stall was still "wash-in", if you want to call it that.  I'd prefer sticking to just saying "more conducive to tip stall".

@FLS, a constant-chord, constant thickness wing will theoretically stall at the same speed.  If that wing had washout as well, theoretically the root would stall before the wing tip.

Stoney, for what it is worth the FW 190 wing twist went to, and stayed at, zero from about 80% chord to the tip. A curious design feature which could explain its legendary departure characteristics in low speed/high AoA/bank angle stalls.  The reference to this anomaly is in Lednicer's aerodynamic modelling comparisons using VSAERO to compare P-51B versus P-51D, versus, Spit IX verus FW 190D
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Offline drgondog

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Re: FW190 vs. BF109: Turn Radius (2011)
« Reply #64 on: April 19, 2011, 10:02:52 AM »
I can't say you're wrong Stoney. Maybe I'm not seeing tip stall as an issue because it occurs so close to departure. It seems like the down aileron will increase the lift on the wing resisting the torquewise rotation and if the opposite wing is losing roll authority first you can just reduce the angle on the still effective aileron. It seems like the roll occurs at departure and not from reduced roll authority from tip stall. Am I missing something?

According to the following reference "Elastic deformation of the Fw 190 outer wing occurs and shifts the load distribution outward" (This would even more of the wing to reach its stalling lift co-efficient simultaneously).

Ref Gross, P -"Die Entwielung der Tragwerkkonstruktion Fw 190", Bericht 176 der Lilllenthal-Gesellschaft, 2 Teil, January, 1944
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Offline FLS

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Re: FW190 vs. BF109: Turn Radius (2011)
« Reply #65 on: April 19, 2011, 10:18:42 AM »
I think Ardy was asking generally about flight in the stalled regime and not specifically about the 190 which seems to be exceptional from what's been posted here.

Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: FW190 vs. BF109: Turn Radius (2011)
« Reply #66 on: April 19, 2011, 10:43:48 AM »
According to the following reference "Elastic deformation of the Fw 190 outer wing occurs and shifts the load distribution outward" (This would even more of the wing to reach its stalling lift co-efficient simultaneously).

Ref Gross, P -"Die Entwielung der Tragwerkkonstruktion Fw 190", Bericht 176 der Lilllenthal-Gesellschaft, 2 Teil, January, 1944

That's an interesting point very relevant to RW aand it raises a question to which I reckon the answer must be an emphatic no...

HTC doesn't model and aeroelastic effects here, does he? I'd be very surprised...
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Offline Stoney

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Re: FW190 vs. BF109: Turn Radius (2011)
« Reply #67 on: April 19, 2011, 11:20:08 AM »
Stoney, for what it is worth the FW 190 wing twist went to, and stayed at, zero from about 80% chord to the tip. A curious design feature which could explain its legendary departure characteristics in low speed/high AoA/bank angle stalls.  The reference to this anomaly is in Lednicer's aerodynamic modelling comparisons using VSAERO to compare P-51B versus P-51D, versus, Spit IX verus FW 190D

It certainly exacerbates the problem, yes, and I had forgotten that detail so thanks for the reminder.  I have a copy of that article, but hadn't looked at it in a while.  I'm trying to wrap my head around what exactly that construction would look like.  Is it that the twist starts at the root, achieves 2% at the 80% semi-span location, and then remains fixed out to the tip?  Because if that's the way it was designed, it would just mean that the twist resolved itself earlier than on other aircraft, and that a 2% difference in incidence would still remain at the tip, right?
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Offline Stoney

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Re: FW190 vs. BF109: Turn Radius (2011)
« Reply #68 on: April 19, 2011, 11:24:58 AM »
I think Ardy was asking generally about flight in the stalled regime and not specifically about the 190 which seems to be exceptional from what's been posted here.

Well, it is a condition that is present on almost all aircraft of the era.  For example, the F6F and F4U both have a 15%/9% airfoil thickness taper from root to tip.  P-51 also uses thickness taper and the Spitfire had a 12%/9% thickness taper as well.  Just about every aircraft in the plane set suffers from this characteristic, except for those aircraft with leading edge slats.  Combined with the planform taper, it can lead to very dicey low-speed handling.
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Offline Stoney

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Re: FW190 vs. BF109: Turn Radius (2011)
« Reply #69 on: April 19, 2011, 11:41:44 AM »
I can't say you're wrong Stoney. Maybe I'm not seeing tip stall as an issue because it occurs so close to departure. It seems like the down aileron will increase the lift on the wing resisting the torquewise rotation and if the opposite wing is losing roll authority first you can just reduce the angle on the still effective aileron. It seems like the roll occurs at departure and not from reduced roll authority from tip stall. Am I missing something?

Two components are at work here: stall and reduced aileron effectiveness.  Once a wing tip is stalled, the lift it produces is dramatically reduced, resulting in a destabilizing roll moment.  Second, the reduced or interrupted airflow over the aileron reduces its ability to counteract destabilizing moments in the roll axis.  It would require some fairly complex analysis to show this graphically, especially since there is a dynamic change in both the resulting lift distribution of the wing as this occurs, but the overall effect is that not only does the plane become destabilized in the roll axis, but the primary control surface that provides the stabilizing input experiences reduced effectiveness.  A double-whammy, if you'll forgive the colloquialism.

Now, in some of the aircraft in-game, you can more easily manage this instability at the edge or even into the stall.  Some of the aircraft in the game experience the tip-stall condition almost instantaneously with the rest of the wing stalling.  Some planes begin to display it much earlier.  The FW-190, given its inherent lower fixed roll stability, is more difficult to control.  For example, one of the reasons I have a difficult time testing power off stalls in the FW190 is because of its instability approaching the stall.  My speeds wander all over the place.  Where I can get other planes to stall within 1 or 2 mph of each test, the FW-190 family gets so unstable at those speeds that the deviation between tests grows to 5-8 mph.
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Offline drgondog

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Re: FW190 vs. BF109: Turn Radius (2011)
« Reply #70 on: April 19, 2011, 01:10:21 PM »
It certainly exacerbates the problem, yes, and I had forgotten that detail so thanks for the reminder.  I have a copy of that article, but hadn't looked at it in a while.  I'm trying to wrap my head around what exactly that construction would look like.  Is it that the twist starts at the root, achieves 2% at the 80% semi-span location, and then remains fixed out to the tip?  Because if that's the way it was designed, it would just mean that the twist resolved itself earlier than on other aircraft, and that a 2% difference in incidence would still remain at the tip, right?

Stoney - Nope.

The Fw 190 started at +2 degrees from 0 to ~ .15 span, then from 2 to zero at .8 span, then zero to the tip with no washout in last 20% span

The P-51B started out at - 1/2 degree at .1span to + 3/4 degree at .20 span then negative gradient to -1.4 degrees at tip.
The P-51D started out at +1 degree at .1 span to  + .6 degree at 25% span then negative gradient to -1.4 degrees at the tip. The two differences are the geometry of the leading edge strake and the unusual upsweep of twist on the P-51B atarting out with a NEGATIVE angle at the Root.from the root chord to app
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Offline Stoney

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Re: FW190 vs. BF109: Turn Radius (2011)
« Reply #71 on: April 19, 2011, 01:36:47 PM »
Stoney - Nope.

The Fw 190 started at +2 degrees from 0 to ~ .15 span, then from 2 to zero at .8 span, then zero to the tip with no washout in last 20% span

The P-51B started out at - 1/2 degree at .1span to + 3/4 degree at .20 span then negative gradient to -1.4 degrees at tip.
The P-51D started out at +1 degree at .1 span to  + .6 degree at 25% span then negative gradient to -1.4 degrees at the tip. The two differences are the geometry of the leading edge strake and the unusual upsweep of twist on the P-51B atarting out with a NEGATIVE angle at the Root.from the root chord to app


Ok, pulled the article and see what you're saying--from the graph in Fig. 6.  I'm guessing the aileron span was probably 20% of the wing semi-span?  I know from my earlier look at the airfoil Clmax, the 23015 stalls at about +2 degrees AoA more than the 23009.  Unfortunately, the chord continues to taper beyond the .8 semi-span position, so at 1.0 semi-span the tip stalls before the .8 semi-span position.  I wonder if the airfoil taper continued from the .8 semi-span to the tip?

Interestingly enough, it looks like the twist in all three aircraft would at least correct for the airfoil taper, if not more on the Spit and P-51 with the negative incidence, except for that last 20% of the FW-190 semi-span.
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Offline drgondog

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Re: FW190 vs. BF109: Turn Radius (2011)
« Reply #72 on: April 19, 2011, 03:33:16 PM »
Ok, pulled the article and see what you're saying--from the graph in Fig. 6.  I'm guessing the aileron span was probably 20% of the wing semi-span?  I know from my earlier look at the airfoil Clmax, the 23015 stalls at about +2 degrees AoA more than the 23009.  Unfortunately, the chord continues to taper beyond the .8 semi-span position, so at 1.0 semi-span the tip stalls before the .8 semi-span position.  I wonder if the airfoil taper continued from the .8 semi-span to the tip?

I would believe constant taper all the way to the tip chord

Interestingly enough, it looks like the twist in all three aircraft would at least correct for the airfoil taper, if not more on the Spit and P-51 with the negative incidence, except for that last 20% of the FW-190 semi-span.

I suspect that the twist philosophy for the Mustang was focused on altering the load (Lift) distribution inboard to more closely approximate and elliptical lift distribution to reduce induced drag
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Offline FLS

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Re: FW190 vs. BF109: Turn Radius (2011)
« Reply #73 on: April 19, 2011, 03:54:28 PM »
Well, it is a condition that is present on almost all aircraft of the era.  For example, the F6F and F4U both have a 15%/9% airfoil thickness taper from root to tip.  P-51 also uses thickness taper and the Spitfire had a 12%/9% thickness taper as well.  Just about every aircraft in the plane set suffers from this characteristic, except for those aircraft with leading edge slats.  Combined with the planform taper, it can lead to very dicey low-speed handling.

Isn't that low speed handling typically with enough flaps out to mitigate that condition?

Offline Stoney

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Re: FW190 vs. BF109: Turn Radius (2011)
« Reply #74 on: April 19, 2011, 03:54:49 PM »
I suspect that the twist philosophy for the Mustang was focused on altering the load (Lift) distribution inboard to more closely approximate and elliptical lift distribution to reduce induced drag

Usually its only done to combat tip stall characteristics, since you can achieve better lift distribution properties merely by tapering planform... Twist causes drag, whereas taper doesn't.  A 45% taper ratio gets you pretty close to an elliptical lift distribution if you leave airfoil thickness constant out to the tip.  I haven't checked it to be sure, but just from eye-balling it, the P-51 has to be close to 45-50% just by planform shape.
"Can we be incorrect at times, absolutely, but I do believe 15 years of experience does deserve a little more credence and respect than you have given from your very first post."

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