Pacific Thunder mid tour stats

[gyrene81]

youre cruising along you see two dots one green one red in your in-flight radar very close together you acquire visual on those two dots you go tearing in as you hit friendly icon range you can figure out that oh its your ally that is in trouble being pursued and with minimal effort due to the visual cues you get from that friendly icon you can easily set up for the pick err save and your ally can easily set it up for you as he knows exactly who and where you are in relation to himself on the other hand you if your ally is in pursuit you can also use that visual info to determine whether you might be needed to run down the con or if theyre twisting and turning its easier tio come tearing in and clear their 12 errr help take out the badguy before more come in now expand this to a mini furball yes both sides benefit or suffer but you cant deny that having friendly icons in that environment is a bonus to the friendlies do i need to post some screenies where i ask you to spot the plane tell me what it is and how far out it is i think HT himself has already weighed in on the overall concept of limitations imposed by current technology vs mark 1 eyeballs

I have mark2 eyeballs, helps with depth perception. Tried using a mark1 imitation but it just wasn't the same. Current technology is not the issue, it's the programming and that has a lot to do with allowing older hardware to run the software with various levels of detail.

Now, if as you try to claim, friendly icons are a "crutch", what do you think would happen if all icons were turned off? You and many others don't like having to fight more than 1 enemy at a time, I personally enjoy it. But, turning friendly icons off or reducing the range further than what we use now makes flying in pairs or groups almost mandatory for any success, especially when there is a good sized group of people in the arena. We have tried it a few times and due to the technical reasons you attempt to use as reinforcement to justify arcade level icon settings, the results were unsavory for many. We tried shorter range friendly icon settings with similar results.

I'm somewhat sure you are intelligent enough to understand the meaning of "compromise". After much discussion and argument the current icon settings being used are a "compromise", just as the arcade settings in the main arenas are. The intent is to give people who choose to enjoy a slightly more immersive experience the opportunity to do so without crippling their ability to be somewhat competitive or forcing behavior that the jousting crowd doesn't like.

If you have an actual idea of icon settings you would truly like to see tested in the arena for playability, we are all ears. Think about what you want to try, how the settings would affect everyone in the arena, what the possible pitfalls are and write it up in an intelligent manner. I guarantee they will be discussed and arrangements to try them at least 1 day will be made so we can all see how they are received by the people who frequent the arena. If it's more successful than what we are doing now, it could very well turn into a standard and replace the current settings.

However, if you cannot bring yourself to do anything more than what others who do not frequent the arena do and spout a bunch of b.s. trying to belittle our efforts, you are cordially invited to go enjoy all the arcade goodness of the other arenas.





p.s. your sig...the word is people. 

[CAP1]

do i really need to spell it out?

ok i will since you're not seeing (heh) the obvious...

youre cruising along you see two dots one green one red in your in-flight radar very close together you acquire visual on those two dots you go tearing in as you hit friendly icon rangeif you truly believe this, then we all should stop using radio and text comms, 'cause i know when i'm approaching the situation you mention, that i'm already in contact with the friendly, loooong before i'm in icon range....if he wants help, i barrel in....if not, then i continue on, or watch the fight from a safe distance. you can figure out that oh its your ally that is in trouble being pursued and with minimal effort due to the visual cues you get from that friendly iconyou can figure this also without the icons....with the map zoomed in. you can easily set up for the pick err save you talk of hypocrisy, yet the only times you've kilt me in particyular, have been by picking me. i'm not saying you couldn't otherwise kill me(cap kills don't count), just saying......and your ally can easily set it up for you as he knows exactly who and where you are in relation to himselfagain, comms.......we do it all the time. on the other hand you if your ally is in pursuit you can also use that visual info to determine whether you might be needed to run down the con or if theyre twisting and turning its easier tio come tearing in and clear their 12 errr help take out the badguy before more come in now expand this to a mini furball yes both sides benefit or suffer but you cant deny that having friendly icons in that environment is a bonus to the friendlies do i need to post some screenies where i ask you to spot the plane tell me what it is and how far out it is i think HT himself has already weighed in on the overall concept of limitations imposed by current technology vs mark 1 eyeballs

now let me ask.. is punctuation a crutch?  or are they visual cues, needed for the written word as opposed to the spoken, in making communication more effective for that modality? suppose i only chose to use a limited set of punctuation. i.e., only used capital letters between sentences?  ever see the effects of a wild or missing comma or apostrophe?  poor analogy

I could (and will) more easily demonstrate the point with a simple question:

For those of you who prefer the "immersion" of no-icons, why should you care if I have *my* icons enabled while you don't - how is this messing with *your* immersion? because now, you know what you're merging with at 6k yards, whereas we need to get closer....giving you the advantage. if you don't like the lack of icons, then go away. go somewhere else, like the other 4+ arenas where they're on.

and for the record my "immersion" are the historical matchups (not nccessarily structured under event-style) and to a lesser extent, the cool maps.

<edit> as for the cool guy / love muffin thing... was there a point to this ad hominuim? should I sic moot on you? but to answer, the question, I am very reflective in that what you give is what you get. you will not see me out of the blue just go off on someone in game (and almost never on the BBS.)if you're insuating that my previous outburst was "out of the blue", you're wrong. you have been beating this dead horse for weeks now. you shouldbe(and probably did) expect someone to go off on ya about it.  i will call people on their in-game behavior, especially when i see the often overtly recognizable hypocrisy between what's being said and what's being done and at which point, you'll see me jump right into and play *that* game, too. i never claimed to be perfect (see sig   )... none of us are perfect. i would however rather be able to believe those that tell me you're a pretty cool guy. but when you keep hammering this crap in here, or when you play the "game" and use your knowledge of how lag works, to collide a guy(see the thread from a week or sao ago), because you ran outta ammo, and just HAD to have that kill.....wel....makes it hard. or always take the high road - I generally try to, until... the ugly monster of hypocrisy raises it's ugleee haid,  then i can ho, gang, pick and vulch with best of them.  

i will also throw an apology out to you for my "abrasive" response to you.......

[CAP1]

Why is it a dead horse? Are you speaking for yourself or as an AvA staffer? IIRC not every staffer shares this sentiment and appear to be open to consideration for change... or am i wrong in that perception and there's *no* way this horse will ever run again?

i'm not a staffer, but i am a regular(when i get back into the cartoon skies), i'm in the dev group, etc.......and i agree with him.

[Shane]

You and many others don't like having to fight more than 1 enemy at a time, I personally enjoy it.

If you have an actual idea of icon settings you would truly like to see tested in the arena for playability, we are all ears. If it's more successful than what we are doing now, it could very well turn into a standard and replace the current settings.

However, if you cannot bring yourself to do anything more than what others who do not frequent the arena do and spout a bunch of b.s. trying to belittle our efforts, you are cordially invited to go enjoy all the arcade goodness of the other arenas.

p.s. your sig...the word is people. 

Only 4 points to address in your emotionally charged reply  

1. I don't mind fighting an actual coordinated pair of wingies. I got as good as I am over the years fighting multiple bogies at the same time, as opposed to being one of the multiples, remaining stuck on suck. Current gameplay is nothing less than DA style of furball lake or 1 v 1 action (depends on nbrs mostly) - take about "arcade"  - but I'm okay with that; I do just as well with or without icons. There is very little reason to actually use proper "tactics" in the AvA.  Sure, some take a feeble stab at it now and then.  

2. I think number$ show just about any other arena (and events) - all using those "arcade" settings, having a more sustainable  playerbase. The weakest being WW1 and early-war. Just look at how many participate in the scenarios and FSO, etc... all 'historical" matchups, yet those numbers don't translate over to the AvA, imho,  in part due to icon settings as well as #1 above in there's no point/objective.  

3. I firmly believe that it's the matchups that appeal more to the current/potential AvA playerbase than the no-icon setting and in fact the no-icon setting is holding down growth of the AVA. Take another look at the AvA chart Lusche did and while we can all draw different conclusions, the fact remains that raw #'s have remained relatively flat (actually in decline) over the course of this no-icon implementation. No-icons is a novelty for most players, they'll come in, give it a try, and ultimately leave.  Natural attrition is pacing the addition of "new" AvA fans - flat growth.  

4. I deliberately chose to spell it the way I did.  

I'm taking the high road here and not even bothering to respond to your more personal attacks. I'll just go ahead and dismiss you as the newbie noob you arp.. errr, I mean, are.    And there's a very good chance I'll still be here long after you and other like-"minded" poepl burnout and leave.

Sooooo... it's been a year now with this rigid, inflexible and clique-ish thinking. Perhaps it's time to occasionally "experiment" the other way?

[CAP1]

 

Sooooo... it's been a year now with this rigid, inflexible and clique-ish thinking. Perhaps it's time to occasionally "experiment" the other way?

depends.....how many years have you been dating women? it's kind of "cliquish" ya know. maybe it's time to "experiment" the other way? 

[Shane]

i will also throw an apology out to you for my "abrasive" response to you.......

No need to apologize except perhaps for statements like this, especially coming from someone involved with the dev "group" and a wannabe staffer,

"if you don't like the lack of icons, then go away. go somewhere else, like the other 4+ arenas where they're on" - I believe it's my dime and I can play where I want. And on that note, NRaven so nicely pointed out in a PM that there exist at least 3 other games that use the no-icon setting, IL2, A-10 warthog and Rise of Flight. Why don't *you* go play *them*?  You have options just like you say I do.

and

"you have been beating this dead horse for weeks now. you should be (and probably did) expect someone to go off on ya about it."  - I have? really? Beyond my initital posts when I returned to the game (and AvA) I haven't really agitated about the no-icon setting.  Do a search. Nor do I make an issue of it when I'm flying.

Statements like that show you only see what you want that will support what you want - not the most conducive of an attitude considering what you hope to be, dev/staffer.  A closed mind is a dangerous thing for those given authority.

Attack the person, not the idea seems to be the modus operandi for quite a few in the AVA forum. Personally I hope you don't become a staffer... diversity is needed more than narrow-minded cookie-cutter sameness. See... I merely reflect.  

meh.

Bet Skuzzy will lock this now, and ironically it won't be because of me per se, but as usual I'll take the blame for it. Don't worry, I can handle it.  

[Shane]

depends.....how many years have you been dating women? it's kind of "cliquish" ya know. maybe it's time to "experiment" the other way? 

I won't even dignify this weaksauce statement beyond stating that I firmly hope you do not become an AvA staffer - you're unfit.

[CAP1]

I won't even dignify this weaksauce statement beyond stating that I firmly hope you do not become an AvA staffer - you're unfit.

that was halfway intended as dry humor. possibly i should've used this instead.....

[Shane]

that was halfway intended as dry humor. possibly i should've used this instead.....

you spin a lot for being a zeke-dweeb.   

[CAP1]

you spin a lot for being a zeke-dweeb.  

i haven't flown the zeek in any of the set ups in the ava. i generally fly allied, unless the sides are uneven, then i'll switch as necessary to try n keep the sides somewhat even.

 i like flying in the arena as it is. it's fun, and not necessarily harder than the other arenas, but rather it requires a different skill set.

 i've not been on much at all, due to some stuff in rl, which is also creating a little of my abrasiveness. i need to get back in there though. i sucked to begin with, and will suck worse now. but i still have fun.

as for me being a staffer.....i don't think i'd want that job. i don't have the patience that's exhibited by our staffers here now. i know i couldn't dio as good of a job as those guys all do.

 i enjoy being in the dev group, because i'm writing setups. that's a lot more fun, and addictive than i had expected it to be. as long as i know people are having fun on a setup i did, it's worth the time.

[Shane]

My zeke comment was a reference to your beginnings in AH...    I'm aware you've expanded your limited skillset to a limited selection of planes. 

As I've repeatedly said, I don't have an issue flying with no-icons (in the limited sense we have now) - I do just fine, tyvm.

I do take exception to the way the "defense" of this setting is being presented.

You, and others, acknowledge that flying without icons vs an opponent with them is an "advantage."  So it's not totally about "immersion" now is it? Stop using that as a rationale if you're going with half-measures that provide the very advantages that you consider unfair to begin with. 

I'm very aware of the concept of concessions (and personal preferences) when it comes to settings and gameplay. That doesn't mean I'm not allowed to express my opinions, now does it? Just like you all, I'd like to see more and better players in the AvA.  Now that the whole storch thing is more distant, you need to consider what really brought up the seeming "rise" of AvA... I dispute that it's the no-icon settings. Where'd all those Finns go?

There will always be a small group of "realism/immersion" poepl - I'm one of them, it's just that *my* immersion are the matchups, not the settings. And I will continue to avow that no-icons in conjunction with friendly-only icons is a crutch.

And believe it or not, I do appreciate the efforts players put into running this arena, as evidenced by the fact I actually play in it on a regular basis.

[gyrene81]

I do take exception to the way the "defense" of this setting is being presented.

You, and others, acknowledge that flying without icons vs an opponent with them is an "advantage."  So it's not totally about "immersion" now is it? Stop using that as a rationale if you're going with half-measures that provide the very advantages that you consider unfair to begin with. 

WHAT? where in the world did you come up with that nonesense. none of us has said any such thing. that's a nasty bit of selective comprehension.

so i'm guessing by your response to my invitiation to put up or shut up, you're choosing to just continue ankle humping others and parrot what they say. i'm really surprised since you claim to be of superior intellect and skill, i would have thought you could come up with a better solution than the 10 people who are making an honest attempt to provide a more immersive experience to players. as for me being a noob, i've seen your gamey acm and if that's the best you have, i would much rather be considered a noob. at least when my toon goes down, it does so after an honest effort.

[CAP1]

My zeke comment was a reference to your beginnings in AH...    I'm aware you've expanded your limited skillset to a limited selection of planes.  i didn't fly a zeek early on. i was one of "them" that came in and tried jumping in a pony. i died a LOT without ever firing a shot. moved on to a hurri2, then spit, then zeek, then p38. p38 is the plane i love, and enjoy flying the most, so that's where i stopped trying differen t...till i came to the ava. flying here has been a good thign for me. it forced me to fly less timidly, along with forcing me to try planes i'd have otherwise not flown.....the p-40 and p-39 are two prime examples.
 to me(and i think most that are here on a regular basis) the settings, matchups, and constant change is what keeps me coming back to this arena.

As I've repeatedly said, I don't have an issue flying with no-icons (in the limited sense we have now) - I do just fine, tyvm.i know you don't need them, which is part of why i don't understand your desire to keep going at this.

I do take exception to the way the "defense" of this setting is being presented.

You, and others, acknowledge that flying without icons vs an opponent with them is an "advantage."  So it's not totally about "immersion" now is it? Stop using that as a rationale if you're going with half-measures that provide the very advantages that you consider unfair to begin with.  i've never thought it was total immersion. i've thought it more fun, and a bit more challenging, along with sometimes feeling more immersed, such as in a close in 1-1 fight.

I'm very aware of the concept of concessions (and personal preferences) when it comes to settings and gameplay. That doesn't mean I'm not allowed to express my opinions, now does it? Just like you all, I'd like to see more and better players in the AvA.  Now that the whole storch thing is more distant, you need to consider what really brought up the seeming "rise" of AvA... I dispute that it's the no-icon settings. Where'd all those Finns go?

There will always be a small group of "realism/immersion" poepl - I'm one of them, it's just that *my* immersion are the matchups, not the settings. And I will continue to avow that no-icons in conjunction with friendly-only icons is a crutch.

And believe it or not, I do appreciate the efforts players put into running this arena, as evidenced by the fact I actually play in it on a regular basis.

my reasoning for not being in the arenas has been some ongoing personal problems in rl. with these, should i come in and fly, i would pretty quickly become one of "them" in the arena....."them" being those that constantly stir up crap on the open channels....and i refuse to allow myself to do that to this arena.

 also.......what do you think of the set up starting today?

[fudgums]

.squelch shane


all is solved 

[Shane]

my reasoning for not being in the arenas has been some ongoing personal problems in rl. with these, should i come in and fly, i would pretty quickly become one of "them" in the arena....."them" being those that constantly stir up crap on the open channels....and i refuse to allow myself to do that to this arena.

 also.......what do you think of the set up starting today?


As I've repeatedly said, I don't have an issue flying with no-icons (in the limited sense we have now) - I do just fine, tyvm.

i know you don't need them, which is part of why i don't understand your desire to keep going at this.

You, and others, acknowledge that flying without icons vs an opponent with them is an "advantage."  So it's not totally about "immersion" now is it? Stop using that as a rationale if you're going with half-measures that provide the very advantages that you consider unfair to begin with. 

i've never thought it was total immersion. i've thought it more fun, and a bit more challenging, along with sometimes feeling more immersed, such as in a close in 1-1 fight.

the set up looks interesting, especially with the addition of wind. is puffy disabled along the English Coast?

for your other points:

1. *I* don't need icons, correct - others might, but since they don't stick around or express their opinions, we'll never know the true effect of this inflexibility. Again, take a look at Lusche's 2010 stats, in particular about the AvA. Draw a straight line from beginning "players" (Jan.) across the graph to the end (Dec). What do you see? Let me do it for you.



2.  Again, you're talking about your challenge and immersion. Apparenly only a handful of players share the sentiment. And again, still... nothing stops you from turning off your icons for your own challenge and semi-immersion. Can you admit that "no-icons"  does stop players from trying out or continuing to fly the AvA?  Would you quit the AvA if icons were brought back? I'll be here either way.

3. Just because you can't separate real-life frustrations from in-game behavior, doesn't mean that applies to everyone who utilizes ch200 in a way you don't particularly appreciate.