As a 190 driver...

[weazel]

 

let's use the same logic for Battle of Britain:
Hurricanes shot down more planes then Spits
LW lost 3 times as many planes as RAF

Due in a large part to Herman (fat boy) Goerings stupidity in slaving the 109`s to the bombers-in affect taking away the 109`s advantages over the RAF fighters. (Thanks God for said stupidity) Otherwise the results would have been markedly different for the Battle of Britain. Just my .02 cents.

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}]
 JG2 "Richthofen"

[spinny]

"Luftwaffe's Jagdwaffe was until early 1944 the best fighter command in the world."

Yeah, they were hell in the Pacific.

[Dinger]

fd-ski is right.  It has a lot to do with the pilots.
Note to report sighting a new or odd plane type, you have to see it up close -- which may have happened on many other occasions, and you have to be able to then fly home -- which may not have always occurred.  Or it could be that the FW pilots did not have the familiarity with their new überrides.  Or maybe they just sucked.  It'd be interesting to hear what the German sources said.

[RAM]

Was the IJN navy air arm the finest in the world in 41-42? yes...did it had any influence in MEditerranean and Atlantic, NO...German Jagdwaffe fought in Western Europe, Mediterranean, North Africa, East Europe, Scandinavia...thats 75% of WWII theaters of operations...so that is also NOT an argument to work with.

Be fair, in 1936-44 the finest fighter pilots were German...and later also (Galland, Kuprinski, Buhligen, prillen,Lemke...they were the finest aces in the world, but only a handfull of them).

[spinny]

Was the IJN navy air arm the finest in the world in 41-42? yes...

It was defeated by the Cactus AF in the Solomons in '42.
                                 


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Spinny, VF-17, The Jolly Rogers 8X

[Westy]

 Actually RAM my opinion is it was until just after the BoB.
 Then it started falling apart from the top down.

 -Westy

[fd ski]

RAM - you're not willing to see the other side of the story mate.

Those LW pilots who made hundereds of kills were shot down mutliple times but since they flew over their own terrirory - a bail wasn't the end for them. For many allied pilots it was. With exception of Battle of Britain, the best Allied pilot could hope for was trying to cross the front lines.
LW pilots on the other hand flew mostly defensive battles on the western front and if shot down could be back in the air by the same afternoon.
Example: Galland was shot down twice same day once if i remember corrtectly.

Now back to 190 vs spit debate:

This horse has been beaten and ever sim i've played. Fact is that preformance wise - aside from roll rate, low level speed and big guns - spitfire 9 - especially HF and LF models were far superior to 190A types.
All 9s could outclimb 190's and once the fight went over 15k - forget it  
And that was in 1943  

In late 43 most of LW in northern france was withdrawn well out of the range of the fighters operating from england. That means that they could pounce em-masse agaisnt fuelstarved targets well away from home.

As for comarasons:

16 planes ( P-51B's ) from 315 squadron ( Polish ) fought over 60 190A's ( probably A8's and A6's ) in 44 and shot down 15 of them for loss of 1. ( results have been confirmed after the war )

Does that mean that 51B should easily outclimb outpace and outturn all 190's ?

 



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Bartlomiej Rajewski
S/L fd-ski Sq. 303 (Polish) "Kosciuszko" RAF
   www.raf303.org  

[RAM]

To spinny:...true, AFTER the best IJN pilots were dead in Midway (and not because their fault), and AFTER they were landed in a base that left Guadalcanal so far from them, yes, they were killed by CAPs of fresh pilots well warned.

Dont take my words as an offense to the CAF. They were great and brave pilots, but japanese, in that time were better. Bad leadership leaded to bad use of pilots and planes, uselessly wasted in the SOlomons.

The same can be said of german Jagdwaffe in 1940. Bad leaded, bad used and still were an awesome force capable of everything.

Westy, I date 1944 as the fall of the Luftwaffe because in 44 died most of german aces...and because the 8th AF Big Week, that destroyed many planes and pilots. After that, with low resources and low fuel the luftwaffe was defenceless...and that still with the better pilots in the world still flying.
If your point is that the Luftwaffe was at its peak in 1940 that is true. IF you speak about Jagdwaffe, I think is not. Molders,Marseille,Hartman,Nowotny,Buhligen,Mayer,Priller,Lemke,in 45 again Galland...etc.
If you look their victories its an unvelievable number. And many of these pilots spent nearly all their careers on Western and Mediterranean fronts,against RAF and USAAF...the average quality of the new pilot was more or less the same in RAF,USAAF and Luftwaffe until 1944 when luftwaffe's training program fall because lack of fuel,resources and time. Then the green pilot were much greener and the Top aces started falling one after all...and all of this started in 1944.

So IMHO Jagdswaffe's rule as better fighter force fall in medium-44 more or less.

[RAM]

 Ski, I always try to be as impartial as I can...regarding your argument about captured pilots, yup, its true, the German ones had the advantage on this matter...but this is part of the war and was something the germans knew and adapted to it. To say that an ace as Galland (the best fighter pilot in history IMHO,maybe level with Marseille and Moelders) was less good pilot because that...mmm I think is not very fair. Of course is IMO you may have your point and I fully respect it.

 Regarding Spit9s, the low level fights (i.e. below 15k) were usually won by german fighters. Until late 1943 the channel air battles were usually won by German Fw190s, the Spit was a wonderfull machine, but again the Fw190 could always chose if engage or run away, had the edge on firepower,hispeed and lowspeed handling, Dive qualities, and was a decent if not good E-keeper (the A-4s to A-6s). I believe that the gap between planes had closed a lot but the 190 was still the better plane. The Spit outclassed the 109Gustavs, but was still after Fw190.
I repeat, that IMHO.

And regarding the Mustang matter...could you give me the date of the fight please?...if is medium to late 44, then you are supporting my theory that the fall of the Jagdwaffe started on early'44.
Anyway I can tell you some amazing stories of couples of german fighters going into formations of 100 and more planes in the russian front, in 1944, and many damaged to down some planes and RTB uncatched...It all depends on E. If those P51 had the E advantage they could bounce the A-8s at will and if cautious enough, the A-6s also. The P51s could return to safe altitude and bounce again. Anyway I always regarded the Mustang as a much better plane than the Spitfire and the fw190A-series. As with the Spits griffons, the Mustang should be compared with 190 Doras, because the Mustang medium was the Hi-altitude, where the 190As were only sitting ducks. The Dora-9 changed that.

[fd ski]

 

So IMHO Jagdswaffe's rule as better fighter force fall in medium-44 more or less.

IMHO their fall started right after battle of britain when they gave away initiative and did not foresee the escallation in numbers required.
( LW on the eve of BoB - 5000 planes or so ) Invasion of Nortmandy - Allies 20000 planes or so ?

They didn't do their homework. That's why they failed. Arian super-knight was highly overrated.

As for 190 - it's a brute machine. In a large group fight - when instant firepower is the king - 190's atributes shine.

It is a good interceptor, and good buff hunter, but it never was a good air-superiority fighter when faced with decent opposition. It lacked high alt performance and stellar climb. Personally i would rather take 109G with GM1 then 190... but that's just me...
 


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Bartlomiej Rajewski
S/L fd-ski Sq. 303 (Polish) "Kosciuszko" RAF
   www.raf303.org  

[Westy]

 I understand what you're saying RAM. I just differ in opinion on this subject.
 I'm currently reading Gallands book, "The First and Last" and my take on what he is saying is more along the lines that he and the vast majority of the LW veterans knew the war was lost when Germany had to spread it's forces from the Western coats of europe, to the Eastern front, Greece & the Caucuses, Italy and Afrika.
 Starting with Goerings blunders during the BoB the LW never really recoverd from trying to fight a 3 front war with it's resources and as they became swamped by bad decisions to fight a numerically superior (and even quite often a quantitatively superior) enemy it was a down ward spiral for the LW.
 There were particular milestones, such as "BigWeek", that REALLY dealt the LW a heavy
blow but the LW was already fighting a losing battle from the BoB onward. Surprise attacks and the resultant initial euphoric victories not withstanding (ie the start of Operation Barbarosa and the Red AirForce being decimated).
 Combinations of bumbling stategies; how deployed, who to ally with (the Italians SHOULD have taken Malta and did not and hence the embroilment in Afrika)and the lack of a long range 4 heavy bomber in particular), combined with being spread out too thin,  along against an increasing quantitative and qualitative war stocks from the US & GB and the Soviet factories east of the Urals the
Germans had no chance to win.
 This is not to say the LW did not have good people at the stick or in thier staff.
 Their numbers dwindled as time went on and could not train nor replace these people like the Allies could.
 But they were not, imo, the best up till 1944. The LW was already on the ropes, being cut to ribbons by the buff gunners and the few but increasing escort fighters starting in 1943. BigWeek was just a hammer blow to the head.
 If the LW WAS the best, then 1944 should have been a different story. Yes it had the best tactics and most experienced pilots due to the SPanish civil War vets and the Polish invasion. I can agree to it being the best in 39, 40 and into 41. but the LW lost it in 41-42 and was on an irrecoverable down hill slide from then untill May of '45

 -Westy

p.s. Moelders kills were East Front. Marseille were in Afrika/Med, Hartman was East Front and these guys, Nowotny, Buhligen, Mayer, Priller, Lemke, I admit I know not much of. I've heard thier names but they're no less the best than the cooresponding top aces of the Allies. the Allies had the luxury of rotating thier pilots on a routine.
 The LW pilots flew till they died starting back in 1939 til the end. I'm sure had there been no rotation for the USAAF pilots and had they started in 1939 you'd see quite a remarkable of three figure kill score Aces also.
 Galland TRUELY was a great pilot. Most of his kills were on the West and predominately against fighters.

[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 02-18-2000).]

[jmccaul]

I certainly disagree that the FW 190A's were superior to the spitfires between 42-44.
 You have to remember the F model in AH is the worst spit 9 varient the HF and LF being superior. In terms of simple numbers they are fairly evenly mathched and both have thier strengths and weaknesses and both were fine planes. The problem with the FW it is a great plane at an energy advantage but if you see a plane with 2000 feet on you you can only roll and hope they miss. Of  all the planes in the AH planeset there is none I would rather be flying when I see con(s) at co-e or higher-e than the spit 9 (even though it is the F). This of course is all opinion but the reason your statement
=============================
Also the A-4 was a widely used aircraft, very feared by the english Spitfires,that in 1942-44 were outclassed by the A-4 to A-6 Fw series.
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Is wrong is simple - Spitfire Mk8

[RAM]

Westy:
Yup I agree that the Luftwaffe was going down from 1940 onwards, but the Jagdwaffe itself was getting more powerful until 1944. I agree that the Luftwaffe wasn't able to maintain aerial superiority in any TO from 1942 onwards. But the Jagdwaffe fought against the RAF in the Channel for nearly 2 years inflicting crippling loses them, at very low cost both in machines and pilots. And by 1943 all british Spits were SpitIXs...

Also I only can agree with strategical blunders, but those were from high command not Luftwaffe nor Jagdwaffe themselves.

Even knowing that war was lost, german pilots kept fighting spirit...they had the most experienced aces in the world between them, and a quite good training scheme that was raising a decent number of new pilots of average to good quality. One of the effects of the Big Week was the high pilot loss, so the training had to be accelerated...then the lack of fuel made the program stop at all, changing to frontline training missions...as you know that was the end for the German Jagdwaffe...it turned in a unexperienced force with a high quality coren.Very very far from being enough to stop the allied tide.
But the force itself, the Jagdwaffe,was the finest in the world...not the better strategically deployed,nor commanded (although Galland did all he could to change their leader's blunders),nor numerous...they were the best figher aces in the world, and they knew it.

I have to correct you in a very important thing. Moelders fought in Spain,then in France,then over Britain,anb THEN changed to the East front. I dont know how many of his victories were in the east front but for sure less tan 20, because he died in 1941 in an accident aboard a He111. He got the swords for his knights cross before galland and I think Diamonds too.I give Galland the Number one ranking but by a low margin...Moelders was his equal in all aspects, maybe a little better...but he didnt' survive.

Now Im surprised you dont know know Maj Walther Nowotny. He was one of the finest LW pilots in WWII. He was awarded the Knight Cross of the Iron Cross with Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds. A total of 258 victories, 255 in Eastern Front ,3 B-17s with a Me262 while he was the commander of Kommando Nowotny, the first operational squadron of 262 fighers. He was before the commander of I/JG54 also. he was dead in 8-11-1944 when taking off in his me262 in Achmer field. His death was seen there by Adolf Galland so it must be in the book a reference to that day, because Galland had a lot of trust in him.

Now for the others:
Oberstlt. Kurt Buhligen. Top Fw190 ace in the WTO. 112 victories, including victories over Tunis.Survived the war.

Oberstlt. Egon Mayer. High score ace in WTO, also in Fw190.102 victories.

Haupt. Siegfried Lemke. Another 190 ace, also in WTO.95 victories. Also survived war.

Those three above were pilots in JG2Ritchtofen...my squad in AH  .All spent their careers in WFront.

Oberst Josef "Pips" Priller. Arguably the best Fw190 rider in WWII. A total of 101 victories, again all in WFront. He also survived war.

Hope this helped a little.

[Vermillion]

Please don't take this as me siding with anyone on the "Spit IX vs Fw190A" debate. (that would be like voluntarily sticking your foot in a bear trap   )

But one item we should not forget is that we fly in a "Icon environment".

This changes things drastically.

In our arena's where we can see the enemy easily (as long as you pay attention), the Spitfire really shines.

In the real world, where it is much harder to see a bad guy (not to mention judge the distances to them), the instantaneous firepower of the 190, and its ability to engage/disengage at will really makes up for its weakness. This is evidenced by the short ranged icon environment, typical to WB's HA and SL's.

I think in real world conditions the 190A's are much closer in "overall ability" to the Spit IX than many of us give it credit for.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

[funked]

Yep, don't let the attributes that are useful in arena combat blind you to what won real air battles.  Speed, guns, durability,  speed, more guns, more speed!  You didn't see the countries on either side rushing to build slower, more maneuverable planes that had weak armament and a fragile powerplant!