As a 190 driver...

[juzz]

What about Heinz Baer. Flew from day one to the end of the war. 220 victories, but spread over France, BoB(top scoring NCO pilot), East and West fronts and Africa/Malta. Had the second highest number of Western-flown kills after Marseilles at 124.

He was the highest scoring "Jet Ace" for years after WW2 with 16 kills in the Me262. Only one (Israeli) pilot has exceeded that score since.

The most impressive thing about his career is that he did well on every front. Many other experten didn't/couldn't make the transition from one front to another and still do well.

[combat23]

Interesting thread:

From the book The Focke Wulf FW190 by Gordon Swanborough and William Green:
 British AFDU report on captured Fw 190 A 3 Werk-Nr 5313. After they get done telling how much it out classed a spit 5, It goes on with a test of the spit 9 with merlin 61 at 3000 rpm and +15 pounds boost. "Speed runs displayed that the new Spitfire was marginaly faster at certain altitudes." Book goes on to give different alts and speeds. FW faster at some and spit faster at others.

"In climbing there was little dispaarity between the spitfire 9 and the fw up to 23,000 ft, although the former displayed a slight edge at 22,00 ft." (the spit was a MUCH better climber above 25,000 ft.

" From high cruse, a pull up into a climb gave the FW the initial advantage, due to it's better acceleraation, and this superiority was even more manifest when both aircraft were pulled up into a zoom climb from a dive."

"In diving, it was ascertained that the Fw 190A could leave the Spitfire 9 behind without difficulty, although the superiority was less marked than with the spitfire V B,"...

The report concluded that the most Disadvantageous alts for fighting the fw190 were below 3,000 ft and between 18 and 22,000.
The Report also noted that the captured fw was a standard AC issued to front line units and the BMW 801D-2 engine was derated in order to conserve operating life. Maximum power was reduced from 1.42 atas which offered some 1,770 hp at rated alt, down to 1.35 atas giving only 1,595 hp at 2,500 ft and 1,455 hp at 18,000 ft.

Top speed listed for 190A3  With one min over ride boost :418mph at 21,000. Time to climb to 26,250 ft listed as 12 mim.

Top speed of 190A8 402 mph at 18,045 ft and with nitrous oxygen boost, 408 at 20,670 ft.
Inital rate of climb 3,450 ft per mim. time to 26,250 14.4min.

The fw 190D was not a high alt, fighter: that's why fw went on to develop the TA 152's.

see ya on line

[Kats]

combat & juzz. Those tests between the spit and A3 - the A3 had a sick engine.

[jmccaul]

==========
Yep, don't let the attributes that are useful in arena combat blind you to what won real air battles. Speed, guns, durability, speed, more guns, more speed!
===========

Of course funked those are very important factors especially on a large scale, these are qualities that the P47 had in a abundance but on personal level when cruising at 12,000 feet and your formation of 109's jumps you would you rather have the p47 or a spit 9 strapped to you.

RAM - I say again the spit 8    

[RAM]

Spitfire Mk.VIII... only a  "relatively" few of them were builded. Better than the Spit IX, better than Fw190A-4...but was in very few numbers so I simply didnt count them.

[jmccaul]

1652 spit 8's were built.

This was posted by fats ages ago
======================
Aircraft Monograph 4
Fw 190A/F/G/S part I
ISBN 83-86208-35-X
Fw 190A-1 102
Fw 190A-2 420
Fw 190A-3 ?
Fw 190A-4 900+
Fw 190A-5 ?
Fw 190A-6 569
Fw 190A-7 80
Fw 190A-8 1,334(+)
Fw 190A-9 ?

Fw 190F-1 ?
Fw 190F-2 271
Fw 190F-3 247
Fw 190F-8 ? ( until feb '45 115 F-8/Pb 1 planes, after which Pb 2 replaced it? )
Fw 190F-9 ?
All in all ~7000 F-series

Fw 190G-1 ?
Fw 190G-2 ?
Fw 190G-3 ?
Fw 190G-8 ?
All in all ~800 G-series

All in all 17000+ radial engined Fw 190s


Aircraft Monograph 6
Fw 190D/Ta 152
ISBN 83-86208-54-6

Fw 190D-9 674 delivered
Fw 190D-12 ? apparently none saw action cause of no fuel

Ta 152 total of all versions 67

Squadron/Signal Publications
Focke Wulf Fw 190 in action
ISBN 0-89747-018-4

Fw 190A-1 100
Fw 190A-2 400+
Fw 190A-3 500+
Fw 190A-4 ?
Fw 190A-5 ?
Fw 190A-6 569
Fw 190A-7 ~80
Fw 190A-8 1300+
Fw 190A-9 ?

Fw 190F series ?

Fw 190G series ?


Various magazines:
Fw 190A-1 102
Fw 190A-2 426
Fw 190A-3 509
Fw 190A-4 894
Fw 190A-5 723
Fw 190A-6 569
Fw 190A-7 80
Fw 190A-8 1334
Fw 190A-9?

Fw 190F series until F-8 1133, F-9 unknown
Fw 190G not mentioned in any magazine I had

=======================================

You said :
======================
Spitfire Mk.VIII... only a "relatively" few of them were builded. Better than the Spit IX, better than Fw190A-4...but was in very few numbers so I simply didnt count them.
=======================

You'll notice no number there exceeds 1652 so all marks of FW are insignicant   Incedently their were about 7200 spit 9's produced.

P.S. I always believed that the A-5 to A-7 offered no performance improvement just a longer nose and shifted centre of gravity
as well as extra armament options. Can anyone tell me the actual improvements in A-5 to A-7?

[RAM]

where did you read that??? overall fw190 production 1941-1945 was nearly 20000!!!!!!
20K!!!!
BTW most if not all of the Spit VIII were sended to Extreme east, so that excluded them at all in ETO.

[juzz]

 

BTW most if not all of the Spit VIII were sended to Extreme east, so that excluded them at all in ETO.

The VIII was if anything, slightly lesser in performance to the equivalent IX . Both had F,LF,HF types, but VIII was little bit heavier.

 

Those tests between the spit and A3 - the A3 had a sick engine.

I've heard that many times before, but would someone care to reference it please?  

Besides that fact, the Spitfire F.IX was run at only +15lbs boost, when it could go up to +18lbs emergency, or even +25lbs with 150 Octane fuel...

So lets see the numbers from the USN Fw190A-5 test then, since the ADFU Fw190A-3 was "porked".

Max Climb: 4000fpm at 4000ft.
Top Speeds: 341mph S/L, 415mph 22,000ft.

Spitfires, from here.

F.IX
Max Climb: 3860fpm at 12,600ft.
Top Speeds: 326mph S/L, 409mph 28,000ft.

LF.IX
Max Climb: 4850fpm at 6000ft.
Top Speeds: 336mph S/L, 407mph 22,000ft.

HF.IX
Max Climb: 4700fpm at 12,000ft.
Top Speeds: 329mph S/L, 415mph 27,800ft.

VIII(LF I believe, Merlin 66)
Max Climb: 4610fpm at 6,400ft.
+25lbs: 5580fpm at S/L.  
Top Speeds: 338mph S/L, 405mph 20,200ft.
+25lbs: 362mph S/L, 409mph 14,000ft.

 

where did you read that??? overall fw190 production 1941-1945 was nearly 20000!!!!!!

Your answer...
 

This was posted by fats ages ago
======================
Aircraft Monograph 4
Fw 190A/F/G/S part I
ISBN 83-86208-35-X

and...

Aircraft Monograph 6
Fw 190D/Ta 152
ISBN 83-86208-54-6

and...

Squadron/Signal Publications
Focke Wulf Fw 190 in action
ISBN 0-89747-018-4

 

[combat23]

Kats By sick engine I think you mean derated?

If so I mentioned that in my post.

Bfdu report on the 190A3 werk-nr 5313:
Weight during trials 8,580 lbs (3,890 kg)
Power loading       5.36 lb/bhp  (2,43kg/hp)
wing loading        42.3lb/sq ft   (206 kg/m2)

RATES OF CLIMB:
0-4,000ft (1-220 m) 2,900ft/m (14,7 m/sec)
2,350 rpm  1.28 atas.

0-4,000ft 2,450 rpm 1.35 atas 3,250 ft/mim (16,5 m/sec)

8,000 ft (2,440 m) 2,200ft/mim at 1.10 atas and 2,450 at 1.17.

10,000-17,000 ft (3,050-5,337m) 2,800ft/min (14,2 m/sec) at 1.28 atas.  At 1.35 atas 3,500 ft/min (17,8 m/sec)

25,000 ft (7,625 m) 2,000 ft/m (10,2m/sec)

The report notes that the above figures relate to the DERATED engine. Max out put was turned down to 1,455 bhp from about 1,770

see ya on line

[funked]

Jmmcaul:  You are right, A-5 through A-7 had no significant performance changes from A-3 or A-4 when in the fighter configuration.  However there were some heavier configurations (armament, armor, external stores stations) so sometimes you will see lower numbers for a particular A-5 through A-7 airplane.

Combat23: interesting figures for the A-3.  Was that derating done because of fuel?  I always figured that since the A-2 ran on B4 fuel, the C3 wasn't available immediately when the A-3 aircraft reached units, and that was the reason for the placards in the A-3 that was captured by the limeys.

[Vermillion]

Combat23: I think Kats is refering to the old "bad spark plug" debate on these tests.

Reportedly, the 190 they used had bad spark plugs (somewhere in the report it notes this), so its believed that performance was adversely effected.

Again reportedly, a couple months later, another set of plugs was recovered from wreckage and placed in the test 190 and performance was improved.

However the evaluation that is quoted above was already written and distributed.

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

[SIFTER]

Let me stir the pot some more  Quote from Aircam/airwar 6 Jerry Scutts
"Among the statistics of the battle (of Britain) were those showing the actual losses incurred by each side when the three principal single-seat fighters were in combat with each other. Thus, Spitfire v.Bf109: 219 to 180 lost; Hurricane v. Bf109: 272 to 153 lost- 491 spitfires and Hurricanes against 333 Bf109s was a ratio impressive enough to show just how effective the Luftwaffe's single-seaters were."

And....
The JG26 War Diary Donald Caldwell (meticulously reseached from both sides records) The Schlageter fighters, and the Richthofen Geschwader to their west, had totally disrupted the British air strategy for 1941. Between 14th June and 31 December, (during circus rodeos, etc...) Fighter Command lost 411 fighters over the channel and the continent, while claiming the destruction of 731 Luftwaffe fighters. The true loss to the Germans was only 103 fighters." And the final deathblow for the Mk9
Tour 1 AH FW190 A-8 1062 kills against Spit9's . Spit9 679 against A-8.
Beta 3 tour AH Fw190 A-8 1679 against Spit9 Spit9 1186 against Fw190 A-8.
Game set and Match. That said Read Eric Browns book Duels in the Sky. He has world record for flying the most plane types 487 and the most carrier landings 2200. He compares most of the world war 2 fighter planes (he flew them)against eachother. He had a battle with an FW190 in a Spitfire over France for 10-15 minutes and they fought to a stalemate. He rates the FW190 and Spit very equal and gives the 190 a big thumbs up in many circumstances. He would personally choose (these are planes used in numbers) The Spit 14-Fw 190d, and then a close third the P51D Mustang. This guy flew them all, alot. And did real and mock combat between them. This book is awesome. Even compares allied against allied. Axis against axis, Etc... He is the most qualified person in the world on this subject. Get the book! You wont be sorry. I wont tell you the other choices.        
SIFTER
"High Deflection, Lead Injection!"
The 902nd Immortal Jaguars

[RAM]

Sifter please input the entire name of the book, and the editorial, I'm getting that book and soon as I CAN!!!

your statistics show what I said...Fw190 was slighty better plane than the MkIX, and with the pilots that germany got in 1941-44 was an assasin...great post and great details, as I said I wait for the book name and editorial  )) thks

[juzz]

Well damn. Looks like the F4U-1 is VASTLY undermodelled then. It's kill:death ratio is only 1.6:1 in AH, but in WW2 it was over 11:1!

[fd ski]

RAM - i have this book Eric Brown "Duels in the sky"

It's a good book to read but hardly an engineer's book. It has lot of "felt" situations more then hard numbers.

Generaly it is not accepted for numbers discussions because of its inconsistencies...

Nice read thou....


------------------


Bartlomiej Rajewski
S/L fd-ski Sq. 303 (Polish) "Kosciuszko" RAF
   www.raf303.org