51D or 47M?

[rabid]

wow widewing, i did not think the 47M matched up that favorably with the 51D. what about turning?

[Widewing]

wow widewing, i did not think the 47M matched up that favorably with the 51D. what about turning?

Clean, they are very similar in turn radius and rate at low altitude. However, with full flaps, the P-47M has the edge with an 8% smaller turn radius and just about a 1 degree/second faster turn rate. Add to that, the P-47M is more stable nearer the limits at minimum turn radius.

[SmokinLoon]

I say the P47M is easier to defeat than the P51D at typical altitudes (-20k).  Above 22k, the P47M becomes a tougher beast as the larger wings, more powerful high alt motor, and better firepower all lend to a better high alt plane.

At lower alts, the P51D has more tricks to worry about that the P47M, IMO.  The P47M has to be more careful in what it does and is less forgiving, imo.

[BnZs]

I don't know Wide, I have achieved victory against some very good P-47M pilots in the P-51 at typical MA alts, simply by sticking to nose-to-tail turning with one notch of flaps deployed. The 51 just seems to come around on the Jug eventually. Rate is more important than radius, and its not really about who has the best rate clean and/or with full flaps, but who has the best sustained turn rate at the best flap setting for that particular plane.

Then there is the factor that while M-Jug performance is very good on WEP, a P-51 in the 8-10K alt band will be cruising at about 400mph, while the Jug at those alts will be cruising at well under that-thus a co-alt 51 tends to have the initial E advantage over a Jug when coming into icon range.

Overall, I give the P-51D the slight edge at typical MA alts, if for no other reason its performance is competitive for longer than 5 minutes at a time. In r/l of course, we all know pilots could and did operate the R-2800 engine at practically whatever power setting they required for as long needed. That would put a whole new complexion on the two planes.

Clean, they are very similar in turn radius and rate at low altitude. However, with full flaps, the P-47M has the edge with an 8% smaller turn radius and just about a 1 degree/second faster turn rate. Add to that, the P-47M is more stable nearer the limits at minimum turn radius.

[BnZs]

.  Above 22k, the P47M becomes a tougher beast as the larger wings,

The size of a plane's wings is only of import in relation to its weight. And the P-47s definitely have a higher wingloading than the P-51. Altitude will not change this relationship. The P-47 rules the stratosphere, but its because of that massive turbocharger, not the wings.

[moot]

I say the P47M is easier to defeat than the P51D at typical altitudes (-20k).  Above 22k, the P47M becomes a tougher beast as the larger wings, more powerful high alt motor, and better firepower all lend to a better high alt plane.

At lower alts, the P51D has more tricks to worry about that the P47M, IMO.  The P47M has to be more careful in what it does and is less forgiving, imo.

The topic of this thread might be one of the best possible examples of theoretical performance (or what pilot who's mastered the plane can do - e.g. Widewing) versus common practical performance in-game (most players you'll run into).

[bj229r]

What he said--I stop worrying when I see that the jug I'm dealing with is an M--vast% of folks who fly it are the same ho-ing, running tards who flew an La7 previous hop

[Urchin]

I don't know Wide, I have achieved victory against some very good P-47M pilots in the P-51 at typical MA alts, simply by sticking to nose-to-tail turning with one notch of flaps deployed. The 51 just seems to come around on the Jug eventually. Rate is more important than radius, and its not really about who has the best rate clean and/or with full flaps, but who has the best sustained turn rate at the best flap setting for that particular plane.

Then there is the factor that while M-Jug performance is very good on WEP, a P-51 in the 8-10K alt band will be cruising at about 400mph, while the Jug at those alts will be cruising at well under that-thus a co-alt 51 tends to have the initial E advantage over a Jug when coming into icon range.

Overall, I give the P-51D the slight edge at typical MA alts, if for no other reason its performance is competitive for longer than 5 minutes at a time. In r/l of course, we all know pilots could and did operate the R-2800 engine at practically whatever power setting they required for as long needed. That would put a whole new complexion on the two planes.

I think if you have the discipline to ONLY turn in one direction at ~200 mph and resist the temptation to do anything else, you might have a shot at it, but I think in most fights the P-51 would be outclassed badly. It would make for an interesting fight I guess, I know for the purposes of "knife fighting" there aren't too many planes in AH that are worse than the P-51. The 190s and maybe the 4 engine bombers come to mind, that's basically it. Ok, that was a slight bit of hyperbole... the 190a5 may actually be better.

[Noir]

The P-47M out-climbs the P-51D from sea level to 10k, by about 15%. It accelerates faster than the P-51D at sea level. Roll rates are too close to be a factor, accept that the P-47M has less adverse yaw.

is that with WEP on?

[BnZs]

I think if you have the discipline to ONLY turn in one direction at ~200 mph and resist the temptation to do anything else, you might have a shot at it, but I think in most fights the P-51 would be outclassed badly. It would make for an interesting fight I guess, I know for the purposes of "knife fighting" there aren't too many planes in AH that are worse than the P-51. The 190s and maybe the 4 engine bombers come to mind, that's basically it. Ok, that was a slight bit of hyperbole... the 190a5 may actually be better.

Great discipline is not required, just the understanding that deploying more than one notch of flaps is counterproductive, and the ability to use lag maneuvers an the vertical to stay out of the scissors with the Jug.

[Widewing]

is that with WEP on?

Yes, both using WEP.

[Chalenge]

I would agree with Widewing in everything he said EXCEPT to say in AH it is never that clearcut. First off a P51 above 30k is being foolish so nix that. Secondly most P51 pilots in this game never carry 100% fuel. Several of the alledged "vets" with the pony are flying at 25% and drop tanks. Given that and the sustained turning advantage... well you would have to judge in the first few seconds of engagement.

All things being equal I wouldnt worry much about either one of them.

[jdbecks]

I have a far easier time shooting down jugs than 51s in my 109

[BnZs]

I would agree with Widewing in everything he said EXCEPT to say in AH it is never that clearcut. First off a P51 above 30k is being foolish so nix that.

But you can save so much gas that way...

[Ninthmessiah]

What he said--I stop worrying when I see that the jug I'm dealing with is an M--vast% of folks who fly it are the same ho-ing, running tards who flew an La7 previous hop

I am the HOing runtard bj speaks of.  I fly the M unless ENY makes me fly the D-25.  I HO in the D-25 too.  When ya got 8 .50s, why not give 'em a lil squirt to the face???  And if you're gonna squirt em in the face, extend out [runtard] to set up another opportunity to squirt em in the face again.  They must be willing to get squirted in the face because if they weren't, wouldn't they face a different direction?  Either way, they're getting it and fighting only takes me longer to finish.

The Sky Rapist