So How About No F3 in the Il-2!?!?!?

[Karnak]

Respectfully... I think you are full of schlitz.  You "never" used F3 mode in the Il-2??? 

I almost never use F3 in bombers either.  Certainly I don't in the Il-2 as it kills immersion.

[Lusche]

Uh... WRONG...

Those vickers S-guns are utter and TOTAL crap.

They aren't. They are just difficult to employ without some practice due to low rate of fire and short ammo clip, forcing the player to shoot precicely from close range & rather steep angles to make his shots count.
But in terms of ammo penetration, there is no tank in AH that the Hurri D can't destroy. Back when the Il-2 only had the 23mm gun and there was no B-25H yet, only the Hurricane D could kill a Tiger without ords. It was my main tankbusting ride for a long time for a good reason. The cannons are powerful enough to take on any tank we currently have in AH.

I have the exact info on my PC at home, perhaps Loosche can post it.  I know he has it because he is where I got the comparing info from.  

According to Anthony G Williams the NS-37 fires a 760g projectile at 880 m/s, resulting in a muzzle energy of 294 kJoule. The Vickers S shoots a 1,130g projectile at 615 m/s, giving it a muzzle energy of 214 kJoule.

[Volron]

Uh... WRONG...

Those vickers S-guns are utter and TOTAL crap.

I've unloaded them into a single panzer before, making dozens of attacks top down, seeing hits almost every time (missing maybe 1 or 2 double-shots out of all 30 rounds total -- both guns fire same time), and not even smoked the panzer. I'm talking thin metal top of the turret, I'm talking top engine deck, I'm talking rear angle shallow engine hits...

The gun is a total piece of feces, and NOWHERE near the lethal hitting power of the NS37.

NS37 is the MOST powerful gun in the game, in terms of effectiveness. Its AP penetration is second best on any tank killer in WW2. The most lethal would be the BK guns on the Ju87G.

That Panzer must have had sups nearby or you had a rubber bullet effect goin atm, because I've destroyed a Panzer with just 2 shots.  Same attack method you used, coming in a bit high and aiming for it's engine/turret.


I don't mind the fact that the IL2 doesn't have the F3 mode.  I did use it, but only to spot enemy GV's and keep an eye out for enemy fighters.  The moment I'd spot a gv though, I'd switch back to pilot to make my attack.  Now you will have to rely on others to escort you, seeing as the horrible view of the IL2 will keep you without a clue.  Definitely will make it interesting.

[SmokinLoon]

In terms of damage vs OBJ, the NS37 does 17.1 and the Vickers S does 14.  While the the way in which the game registers damage to OBJ and player controlled vehicles is different there is a corelation. 

The real world differences is about %25-%27 in kenetic energy.  Would you rather get shot with a .30-06 or a .45-70?   

[Flayed]

 Never used F3 myself as it just seemed cheap and to much like a PS or X-box game.  I really didn't use the IL much at all for killing tanks preferring my beloved Yak 9T instead.

[Lusche]

  I really didn't use the IL much at all for killing tanks preferring my beloved Yak 9T instead.

And how effective is the Yak on a Tiger, Sherman VC or T-34/76?

[Noir]

And how effective is the Yak on a Tiger, Sherman VC or T-34/76?

maybe enough to steal the kill from the people that do actual damage 

[Flayed]

maybe enough to steal the kill from the people that do actual damage 

 Almost right.    I've found that about 2 or 3 rounds placed into the engine of a tank will result in a stalled tank sitting there smoking like a beacon for the friendly tanks to come kill usually resulting in the YaK getting the kill.
  I used to be really good at this but I'm a lil out of practice or my old X-52 is getting a lil sloppy now and I can't seem to aim as well as I once did.

  BTW everything I've ever heard over the years about kills is the game supposed to award the kill to the guy who does the most damage so in that case my Yak wins.

[OOZ662]

I must admit that I'm really sad to see the Il-2's external view go away. To me F3 didn't belong to "bombers," but to "aircraft with more than one set of eyes." I'll be the first to say the Il-2 is NOT a bomber, but I will miss F3. That said, I very rarely flew the Il-2 as an Attacker either; it was my main base defense fighter with the 23mm loadout. That school bus turns very well on the down-slope and is unmatched versus the HO monkeys (it lacks in firepower compared to the 110, but it's very well armored except the radiator). And, yes, I'll be the first to admit that I take EVERY HO opportunity I can get while fighting in the Il-2 as well...if you're dumb enough to face anti-tank cannons on purpose, you deserve it.

[Reaper90]

I must admit that I'm really sad to see the Il-2's external view go away. To me F3 didn't belong to "bombers," but to "aircraft with more than one set of eyes."

You can still use the second "set of eyes" in the IL2.... hit "2" and look from the rear gun position just like in real life....

F3 veiw should only be re-enabled for the IL2 if someone can provide us concrete proof that the Russians towed the 2nd crewman approx 100 feet behind and above the tail of the IL2 and that he actually had control of the aircraft from there.

[OOZ662]

You can still use the second "set of eyes" in the IL2.... hit "2" and look from the rear gun position just like in real life....

I'd like to see someone use fighter maneuvers from there. Even switching back and forth, it levels you out when you move.

F3 view was described as the pilot being connected by radio to his crewmembers. Using a troll as absurd as

F3 veiw should only be re-enabled for the IL2 if someone can provide us concrete proof that the Russians towed the 2nd crewman approx 100 feet behind and above the tail of the IL2 and that he actually had control of the aircraft from there.

is just using the same argument used against F3 in general (B-17s, B24s, G4Ms, et al didn't use towed cameras either), so I don't see why it's specifically relevant here.

[BnZs]

F3 was disabled in Il2s primarily because of the way Ghi learned to exploit it.

Making it impossible to shoot in F3 mode would arguably have been a better solution to Ghi's antics, but I'm kind of happy with the Il2s as they are now.

Also...get real...the rear-gunner's input is never going to be anywhere near as useful for manuevering as the pilot's own eyes being on the bandit, which is exactly what F3 gave you.

[OOZ662]

Also...get real...the rear-gunner's input is never going to be anywhere near as useful for manuevering as the pilot's own eyes being on the bandit, which is exactly what F3 gave you.

That's correct. I don't feel like reviewing the arguments made in the "get rid of F3 mode" threads, but they can't be searched for at the moment either. Suffice it to say that I know it was flawed but I think it was the best compromise and am sad to see it go.

[ToeTag]

Uh... WRONG...

Those vickers S-guns are utter and TOTAL crap.

I've unloaded them into a single panzer before, making dozens of attacks top down, seeing hits almost every time (missing maybe 1 or 2 double-shots out of all 30 rounds total -- both guns fire same time), and not even smoked the panzer. I'm talking thin metal top of the turret, I'm talking top engine deck, I'm talking rear angle shallow engine hits...

The gun is a total piece of feces, and NOWHERE near the lethal hitting power of the NS37.

NS37 is the MOST powerful gun in the game, in terms of effectiveness. Its AP penetration is second best on any tank killer in WW2. The most lethal would be the BK guns on the Ju87G.

Sombody said it....we need the G model Stuka.  I would come back for that one.

[kilo2]

damn time to start flying the a20 again

There was nothing quite like hitting some one 1.5k away and seeing his wing fall off.