Tracers

[Vudu15]

I dont like folks to know when Im shootin at em. and I dont need em most of the time.

[Zoney]

In Real Life, were there pilots who chose to loadout without tracers?  Were they even allowed to make that choice?

[F6Fraven]

I've never really flown with tracers on for an extended period of time, so I can't really compare the two, but from what I've seen people with tracers off tend to shoot a lot better.
Gunnery comes down to how much you're willing to practice. Every time I'm about to log into Aces High I spend about 30 mins offline shooting at drones in my F6F with tracers off, as usual. However, I even take it a step further. I turn the brightness down on my gun site so it's invisible. That way, instead of lining a gun site up like you would on a rifle, I'm lining the whole plane up. That forces me to pay attention to the whole plane, how much it's slipping to the side, my AoA, etc, instead of paying attention to a single dot, the gun sight.

On the topic of range, I would probably say that for shots greater than 800 out, tracers on is probably the better package, as long as you fire in short bursts. However, that doesn't mean I'm afraid to shoot at a P-51 trying to extend at 1000 out. Tracers off is probably better for short range. I have my convergence set to 650. When I'm shooting at a plane closer than 200 out I have to remember that the bullets from the left wing are far apart from the bullets from the right wing. Even if a plane is flying straight I have to aim either left or right about .5 inches on my screen in order for half the bullets to hit, because it's impossible to get them all on.

As far as using no tracers to avoid the enemy seeing your shot......I think you have to use the old "one shot one kill" strategy. If you aren't going to miss, the enemy won't know what hits them.

For those who say it's just luck....on a good tour I shoot 16+% in the WW2 arena, and over 35% in the WW1 arena. Also, I'm not afraid to shoot at a 190 stick stirring at 1000 out.

[Wraith_TMS]

aside from the fact that you used some poor examples about learning to shoot...the feedback you get in ah is seeing the hit sprites on the target without the tracers distracting you...some people tend to pay too much attention to the tracers and either over compensate when they shouldn't or think they are getting hits when they aren't. i suck at shooting anyway but...it can be a good learning tool if you want to increase your hit percentage, mainly because you're not so prone to taking 1000 yard shots, you tend to try for much closer range high percentage shots, and you have to watch your target alignment in the gunsight more...but that only applies to people who aren't gaming the game.

I stopped using tracers a few months ago.  While an advantage can be had by keeping the target unaware that he's being shot at, there is a more important reason for me personally.  In short, tracers are a debilitating distraction to my shooting.  For others they are a valuable tool, but I find I personally gain more shooting accuracy by not using them; at least for now.

Gyrene pegged it: by not using tracers, I actually see where/when my shots hit.  I see the hit sprites, not the tracer smoke obscuring my target.  Others don't have a problem with that, but I have very, very bad eyesight so the tracers confuse me, and as Gyrene and HT said, I then overcompensate by focusing too much on where the tracers go and not on where the target is.  By removing tracers from the sensory input mix, I've simplified my view of the situation enough that I have a better idea of the gun solution.  Since I also try to shoot close in, at that point, I have a strong sense of when I'm close to the lead that I need.  Kentucky Windage/ intuition handles the rest.  It may not always be precise or efficient, but it's improved my Hit % from "truly  pathetic and awful" to a much better "paltry and substandard."   I'll take it! 

There is yet another benefit from my perspective.  I tend to fly a small variety of planes with differing gun packages: wing mounts and cowl mounts, all cannon, all mg, and mixed packages (usually dictated by ENY and offensive/defensive situations), most of whose guns have flatter trajectories.  By not using tracers, I find that regardless of which plane I'm in, I'm able to focus on where the sprites/shots are hitting and not the fact that all these different tracer trajectories are coming off and converging from my plane from different locations on the airframe.  Again, less sensory input is sometimes a good thing.

So yes, there are tactical reasons why some folk don't use tracers, but there are other benefits for the shooter too.  It does help in gunnery improvement; at least in my case it has.  Your mileage may vary, of course.

FWIW,

...

[muzik]

Turning off tracers and leaving them off for an extended period of time will improve your gunnery. Thats the first reason why you should do it. The 2nd reason is also the why it helps, tracers obstruct your view. You will notice after having them off for a long time, that the minute distances you see in a proper lead are hard to see when tracers are flashing through the entire shot. Not every shot mind you, I think it's only the flatter shots. Anyhow, after turning mine back on one time, I was appalled at how much they aggravated me.

People not knowing when you are shooting at them is just an added benefit. But this also is a reason why your shooting will improve. After missing many shots initially, you start to hone in on that minute sweet spot that results in a kill. Do this long enough and it becomes instinctive.

As for those who think it is a cheap tactic use by those who can't shoot, the top shooters in the game usually have them off. And if a persons SA is so bad that he doesnt know someone is on his six unless he sees tracers flying past him, well, I think they have bigger problems than the minority of people who fly with tracers off.

Gunnery comes down to how much you're willing to practice. Every time I'm about to log into Aces High I spend about 30 mins offline shooting at drones in my F6F with tracers off, as usual. However, I even take it a step further. I turn the brightness down on my gun site so it's invisible. That way, instead of lining a gun site up like you would on a rifle, I'm lining the whole plane up. That forces me to pay attention to the whole plane, how much it's slipping to the side, my AoA, etc, instead of paying attention to a single dot, the gun sight.

On the topic of range, I would probably say that for shots greater than 800 out, tracers on is probably the better package, as long as you fire in short bursts.

I like that idea of turning the sight off. Sounds like it might be beneficial.

I have spent maybe 2 hours shooting at drones offline over all the years I've played and I think it is a bad idea unless you are absolutely brand new to shooting in flight sims. The drones are too slow and predictable. They are highly inadequate for the 300 to 500 mile per hour shots you frequently find in game. Not to mention the multitude of different deflection angles.

[mtnman]

aside from the fact that you used some poor examples about learning to shoot...

In RL, have you ever taught anyone to shoot?  I'll admit, I have limited experience; I was a certified shooting instructor for only a few years.  Competitively, I've been shooting far longer than that.

How do people learn to shoot?  (In your words/experience)

the feedback you get in ah is seeing the hit sprites on the target without the tracers distracting you...

Ah...  The distraction theory...  I see.   

some people tend to pay too much attention to the tracers...

Where do you get that idea?  Any data to show or support that theory?  Just speculation?

i suck at shooting anyway but...it can be a good learning tool if you want to increase your hit percentage, mainly because you're not so prone to taking 1000 yard shots, you tend to try for much closer range high percentage shots, and you have to watch your target alignment in the gunsight more...but that only applies to people who aren't gaming the game.

I'd ask (if you really shoot as poorly as you claim) how you feel qualified to make gunnery recommendations?

Why you'd think turning tracers on (or off for that matter) would have any effect at all on someone's willingness to take long shots?  It has the opposite effect on me, since I see how much more effective my gunnery is in close compared to way out.  I consider 500-600 as "way out". 

I'm also curious if anyone out there has any (even a tiny amount) of factual data to show the correlation between turning tracers off and increasing hit %.  I'd be especially curious to see if the data could show that the tie was directly related to tracers and had nothing to do with skill acquired through repetition or experience.

And, tell me more about how having tracers off makes you watch your gun sight alignment more?  That would seem to be a bad effect, if AH gunnery has any semblance to real-world gunnery.  Whether shooting moving targets with a bow, rifle, or shotgun, paying too much attention to your sights is a proven way to increase your chances of a MISS, not a hit...  Why is fixating on your sight a good thing in AH?  In the real world, especially on a moving target, you should be fixating on your target instead.  The sights should be little more than a peripheral object, really just assuring you that the gun is aligned to your eye properly (which we don't need to worry about in AH, making the sights less important in AH than in RL).

I've said it before, and I'll say it again...  I recommend turning your sight off before (instead of) turning your tracers off...  It almost never points where you need to shoot anyway.

[Sunka]

In RL, have you ever taught anyone to shoot?  I'll admit, I have limited experience; I was a certified shooting instructor for only a few years.  Competitively, I've been shooting far longer than that.

How do people learn to shoot?  (In your words/experience)

Ah...  The distraction theory...  I see.   

Where do you get that idea?  Any data to show or support that theory?  Just speculation?

I'd ask (if you really shoot as poorly as you claim) how you feel qualified to make gunnery recommendations?

Why you'd think turning tracers on (or off for that matter) would have any effect at all on someone's willingness to take long shots?  It has the opposite effect on me, since I see how much more effective my gunnery is in close compared to way out.  I consider 500-600 as "way out". 

I'm also curious if anyone out there has any (even a tiny amount) of factual data to show the correlation between turning tracers off and increasing hit %.  I'd be especially curious to see if the data could show that the tie was directly related to tracers and had nothing to do with skill acquired through repetition or experience.

And, tell me more about how having tracers off makes you watch your gun sight alignment more?  That would seem to be a bad effect, if AH gunnery has any semblance to real-world gunnery.  Whether shooting moving targets with a bow, rifle, or shotgun, paying too much attention to your sights is a proven way to increase your chances of a MISS, not a hit...  Why is fixating on your sight a good thing in AH?  In the real world, especially on a moving target, you should be fixating on your target instead.  The sights should be little more than a peripheral object, really just assuring you that the gun is aligned to your eye properly (which we don't need to worry about in AH, making the sights less important in AH than in RL).

I've said it before, and I'll say it again...  I recommend turning your sight off before (instead of) turning your tracers off...  It almost never points where you need to shoot anyway.

I also would like to see hit % vs tracers on or off,though i do keep my eye on some of the ...more skilled players hit % and KD  ,and Mtn Man i know your hit % is in the top, along with some others that i also know leave their tracers on.

[mtnman]

Turning off tracers and leaving them off for an extended period of time will improve your gunnery.

How so?  Explain.

The 2nd reason is also the why it helps, tracers obstruct your view.

Having used tracers for most (not all) of my 10 or so years, I disagree.  I've never felt they obstructed my view of the target, but maybe that's because I don't shoot until around the 300yd mark?  On long shots I guess I could see it.  Or maybe with nose-mounted guns (which I don't use)?

After missing many shots initially, you start to hone in on that minute sweet spot that results in a kill. Do this long enough and it becomes instinctive.

Very true.  But turning tracers ON will shorten the time required...

As for those who think it is a cheap tactic use by those who can't shoot, the top shooters in the game usually have them off.

Curious...  Data to show this?  Out of, say, the top 100 shots, how many have tracers off?  How many in the top 10?

The one thing I really do like about tracers being turned off, though, is when my opponent has them off.  It makes me smile!

[waystin2]

I am with the Mtnman on this one.  Further I think Zoney asked a good question about the ability to choose and whether it was ever really done. 

[Krupinski]

I don't know if it's mental or what but I seem to hit with 30mms easier with tracers off.

No Tracers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nveifeh6rYc

[Patches1]

Personally I think turning tracers off is one of the most over-hyped aspects of aerial gunnery in the game.

Your gunnery can also improve with out tracers. With tracers people tend to adjust constantly. With out it becomes more like instinct/ shot gun shooting and you hold a steady lead instead of watching tracers.

At least thats the way it works for me.

I think both of these statements have merit.

Mtnman is a Trainer, and giving folks feedback on their skills is what he does to help them improve.

HiTech is the developer of this game and is a real life pilot who knows how to fly with his head outside of the cockpit.

Both of these gentlemen are accomplished Aces High Pilots.

Tracers on...Tracers off...in my opinion it really doesn't matter because if you've listened to, and practiced with the Trainers (Mtnman, et al), and through their efforts you've learned to fly like the developer (HiTech), you've already learned to: (a) first out-fly your opponent...and then (b) shoot him down.

To me, the hardest part of Gunnery is setting up the shot...i.e...out-flying my opponent. If I have flown well, a brief burst from my guns will put my opponent in his parachute. Did he care if my tracers were on, or off? Probably not.

Tracers are a visual tool, nothing more, nothing less.

Trapshooters know how to use the sight on their shotgun. Most "shotgun" shooters don't.

[gyrene81]

In RL, have you ever taught anyone to shoot?  I'll admit, I have limited experience; I was a certified shooting instructor for only a few years.  Competitively, I've been shooting far longer than that.

How do people learn to shoot?  (In your words/experience)

Ah...  The distraction theory...  I see.   

Where do you get that idea?  Any data to show or support that theory?  Just speculation?

I'd ask (if you really shoot as poorly as you claim) how you feel qualified to make gunnery recommendations?

Why you'd think turning tracers on (or off for that matter) would have any effect at all on someone's willingness to take long shots?  It has the opposite effect on me, since I see how much more effective my gunnery is in close compared to way out.  I consider 500-600 as "way out". 

I'm also curious if anyone out there has any (even a tiny amount) of factual data to show the correlation between turning tracers off and increasing hit %.  I'd be especially curious to see if the data could show that the tie was directly related to tracers and had nothing to do with skill acquired through repetition or experience.

And, tell me more about how having tracers off makes you watch your gun sight alignment more?  That would seem to be a bad effect, if AH gunnery has any semblance to real-world gunnery.  Whether shooting moving targets with a bow, rifle, or shotgun, paying too much attention to your sights is a proven way to increase your chances of a MISS, not a hit...  Why is fixating on your sight a good thing in AH?  In the real world, especially on a moving target, you should be fixating on your target instead.  The sights should be little more than a peripheral object, really just assuring you that the gun is aligned to your eye properly (which we don't need to worry about in AH, making the sights less important in AH than in RL).

I've said it before, and I'll say it again...  I recommend turning your sight off before (instead of) turning your tracers off...  It almost never points where you need to shoot anyway.

i can tell certain things are slightly over your head...i actually listened to some advice another player far above my cartoon skill level and turned off tracers for a bit then went into the dueling arena to practice...it helped bring my focus to the sight picture, not take low percentage shots, not fire beyond 500 yards and use shorter bursts...as you can see by other responses, i'm not the only one who has done the no tracers and found some measure of improved gunnery.

yes i have taught marksmanship...as a civilian and in the military. now i'm sure you are a good instructor and above average marksman, but i have to ask...when was the last time you used tracers to teach someone how to shoot a rifle or pistol, in real life? if you have ever fired an automatic weapon with tracers you would know that real life tracers don't have the same visual effect as they do in this game, especially in broad daylight. and yes, i do use the gun sight in the game...same as i do on a real weapon, focused on the target and not the front sight post or crosshairs. i still fall back into the "follow the tracers" mode more often than i would like, because i don't leave them off all the time...and that is simply because my stats in this game have exactly zero influence on my life.

[waystin2]

i can tell certain things are slightly over your head...

LOL over Mtnman's head?  Now you have been awarded priceless post status here on the AH BBS...

[Sunka]

 

[muzik]

How so?  Explain.

I just did. As did a few others. The tracers are a distraction and take concentration away from the sight picture. And really, how often to you teach people to use tracers as a means of becoming a better shot in your professional "instructor" position? Just curious.

Having used tracers for most (not all) of my 10 or so years, I disagree.  I've never felt they obstructed my view of the target, but maybe that's because I don't shoot until around the 300yd mark?  On long shots I guess I could see it.  Or maybe with nose-mounted guns (which I don't use)?

Maybe its because you havent tried it enough in "most" of your ten years or so. And I do use nose mounted rides in games, and yes that would certainly make a difference but doesnt change the fact there will still be a considerable amount of distraction even on wing mounted rides. Since you brought it up, I do fire at ranges up to 1000 and get hits 80% of the time. NO it doesnt show in my hit%, and as an "instructor" you should be able to figure that out.

Very true.  But turning tracers ON will shorten the time required...

Curious...  Data to show this?

Curious...  Data to show this?  Out of, say, the top 100 shots, how many have tracers off?  How many in the top 10?

Curious...  Data to show otherwise?


Curious, in all your years as an "instructor" how many of them did you spend in a ww2 fighter aircraft teaching aerial gunnery?