Tracers

[Vinkman]

I need to ask...

The primary reason I've always heard/seen/read when it comes to WWII use of "no tracers" has been the idea that they gave away your presence to the enemy. 

In WWII, that was a very valid point, since the majority of the time the enemy was shot down because he was unaware of your presence...  In units that didn't use tracers, I've seen the reports where it was linked to more success.  Again, though, it was likely due to the same reason...  Most planes were shot down by "surprise", using no tracers increased the chances of "surprise", so using no tracers led to increased success.

I've never seen any correlation in WWII for increased gunnery skill due to lack of tracers, like is sometimes argued in AH.  In  WWII, it very well could have led to an increased hit%, because an unaware pilot was more likely to be flying straight/level (easy to hit) than doing any hard maneuvering (hard to hit).  I would certainly hope that an level-flying plane with an unaware pilot would be easier to shoot down, and therefore removing tracers would likely lead to greater success.

That's generally not the case in AH though, and lack of tracers is being used to argue something else entirely.  I suspect it could be a distortion of historical fact to link lack of tracers to increased skill... 

In all of your responses you didn't address the the issue that some have expressed, that tracers don't provide good feedback because you can't really see where they are going. I think you are making a very good theoretical agrument about feedback, but it's only valid it the feedback is good and effective. IMO it is not very good so the trade off with giving away position is much more relevant in the cost benefit analysis. 

[Lusche]

I think you are making a very good theoretical agrument about feedback, but it's only valid it the feedback is good and effective.

For me it is. Not perfect, but far better than having no visual feedback at all. See my earlier report about the detrimental impact of disabling tracers had on my ability to hit consitently.

[Vinkman]

For me it is. Not perfect, but far better than having no visual feedback at all. See my earlier report about the detrimental impact of disabling tracers had on my ability to hit consitently.

Not only did I see your earlier post, I referensed it calling it the "Lusche Effect" 

For me, the feedback is good in certain types of shots, and lousy in others. 

[Shuffler]

From what I read in an 8th Airforce gunnery analysis for why a tracer was not a good way to aim. The round and the flair ball behind it are far enough apart that the gunner or pilot looking at it is already behind in his mental timing. The flair ball is so large your eyes will naturaly tend to track the flair rather than looking to a point ahead of it. The shooter will tend to under compensate for the 4 or 5 rounds between tracers that he cannot see. That exaserbated the already large problem most pilots had with judging lead on a moving target befor the K14 Gyro sight came on the scene.

This is why they wanted the gunner or pilot to learn their sight picture and understand elevation, lead for given distances and  angles of attack, and speed. Much of the gunnery in WW2 between fighters and their target was 300 to point blank. At those ranges a tracer helps at 300 to correct into the target. Inside of that your target is filling your gunsight and even a myopic man can pour automatic fire into something as large as a 30ft wingspan fighter. This may have been part of what eventualy dictated homogenious ammo belts to get the most damage for the load.

The real skill in WW2 or in Aces High comes down to piloting your ride inside of 300 yards at which point most players can even hit themselves in the kester with a banjo. There is nothing like flying offline and shooting over and over for 30 minutes or more at full zoom to key your brain into the proper sight picture to place a stream of rounds where the con will fly into them. I will ventur mntman has one graticule he uses all the time and the sight picture burned into his brain for elevation and lead at 400 into point blank in his favorite ride. Nothing like repetition to remove hesitation.

From watching several hours of offline drone killing film a few months back at very slow motion. The tracer in aces high is kind of like an 6 ft plasma streak 3inches in diameter tapered at both ends. When the tip of it intersects the pixel area representing parts of the con it makes damage on contact to damagable areas. Looks like plasma bolts from some FPS game. If you are leading far enough ahead of your con you will see the tracer round intersect and damge the con. I've found them to be helpful in making lead corrections to get the rest of my rounds on target. But, in most cases knowing my sight picture to begin my shooting was more important for placing enough rounds on the target to matter.

You only get better at shooting by shooting. Ergo, in an air combat simulator you have to practice flying along with the shooting to make the shooting better. Chicken or Egg.....hmmmm...KFC...heheheh ee

Please refrain from confusing this discussion with facts

[Lusche]

Not only did I see your earlier post, I referensed it calling it the "Lusche Effect"  

You are confusing something.

The "Lusche Effect" is when someone is getting so much immersed in stats & numbers that he not only forgets to play the game over it, but also feels the urge to use every possible excuse to post senseless charts... like this one:

[Shuffler]

You are confusing something.

The "Lusche Effect" is when someone is getting so much immersed in stats & numbers that he not only forgets to play the game over it, but also feels the urge to use every possible excuse to post senseless charts... like this one:

(Image removed from quote.)

 

[Noir]

You are confusing something.

The "Lusche Effect" is when someone is getting so much immersed in stats & numbers that he not only forgets to play the game over it, but also feels the urge to use every possible excuse to post senseless charts... like this one:

(Image removed from quote.)

I like your stats. They make me feel good about my ePen.

[IronDog]

From what I've seen on WWII gun cam films.it appears that most pilots used tracers.One about every tenth round.I watched an interview with Bud Anderson,and he said he only used tracers at the end of the belt to let him know he was getting low on ammo.He also stated he didn't care which Pony he flew as the  lack of a pair of MG's didn't bother him.Personally I would like the 6 MG package,as with 4,it's assist city for me.
In the game,and with all the ho-ing taking place,tracers off is probably best.With all the face shooting going on,there will be collisions,and we all have had this one happen.The bad guy collides with you ,you get a ton of damage,and die,and he gets the kill.it also works the exact oppsite.I have seen a oncoming bad guy fly close to me and never hit me,and he gets a collide message!If they ever fix that aspect of the game it would be nice.
I use tracers off most of the time,but will switch once in awhile.I spray and pray,so it doesn't matter for the most part.
The Dawg

[Vinkman]

You are confusing something.

The "Lusche Effect" is when someone is getting so much immersed in stats & numbers that he not only forgets to play the game over it, but also feels the urge to use every possible excuse to post senseless charts... like this one:

(Image removed from quote.)

  

[grizz441]

You are confusing something.

The "Lusche Effect" is when someone is getting so much immersed in stats & numbers that he not only forgets to play the game over it, but also feels the urge to use every possible excuse to post senseless charts... like this one:

(Image removed from quote.)

Cumulative distribution please

[Lusche]

Cumulative distribution please

Something like this?

[Ack-Ack]

I'm one of those players doing very good in the shooting department in AH.

Without tracers, I suck.

I think it's one of those things that where it helps some and just doesn't help others.  I know when I first started AH after coming from AW, my shooting was terrible with tracers on.  Nowhere near the accuracy I had in AW, so I followed someone one's suggestion and turned off tracers and watched as my accuracy improved.  It's to the point now that I can fly either with them on or off without any loss of accuracy between the two.  I usually keep them on now because I am too lazy to go into preferences and enable/disable them when I hop between the Lightning and B-25H (use tracers to mark targets for friendly GVs).

ack-ack

[bustr]

Sight picture and repetition.

I used to shoot with and old marine who talked me into buying an M1A1 and a garand. All he would talk about was sight picture. Post and Pumpkin. Look through the rear peep. Line up the front post with the black target center on top in the center of the peep. Post and pumpkin. Burn it into my brain. 6 months later of shooting several hundred rounds a weekend with him I could off hand and put 5 in the black at 200 everytime.

Aces High is the same way. I cannot account for anyones flying skill. There are trainers and many hot aces in the DA. But, your gunnery is simple. Sight picture. First find a gunsight that works for you. If you want to be technicaly correct here is a real world sighting spec that works in the game because Hitech has programed down to that level of granularity.

Make a gunsight for your american, british, japanese and russian planes that has an outer ring 120mil, inner 60mil and a cross for a dot that is 25mil across. In your aircraft move your FOV forward until the 120mil ring fits the reflector plate or is even smaller. With the german, italian, Ki61/84 make a 100mil ring with a cross. Move your FOV forward to make the 100mil ring fit. With the Revi the 100mil ring showed roughly as 2/3 the width of the glass. Japanese just fit the glass.

Many countries pre WW2 copied german export gunsights so their graticule was often to german standards. 100mil ring. Japanese used both 100mil and 120mil. Army, Navy kind of thing.

Offline chase cons around for 30 minutes at a time. Set your ammo to 10x in the arena setup so you can spray. Start all shooting at 400 yards and at "full zoom". Eventualy you will notice for most 400 yard lead shots you place the edge of the 60mil ring on the fuslage of the con elevated up from center about halfway down the vertical line of the cross. With the cricle and cross 100mil ring you hold the con's fuslage 2/3 off center inside of the 100mil ring with elevation. Helps to have the standard Reflexvisier stadia marks. Because of repitition you will start anticipating your lead and elevation due to perviously shooting at the same lead and elevation so many times before. Becomes second nature after awhile and you can focus on the pilot stuff....Tracers....optional or as a minor lead correction indicator.

The 100mph ring talked about by the british is 120mil with the horz bar spaced at 60mil. PBP1 120/60 with cross. American rings with the N-2 and N-3 series started out 30mil and migrated upwards through the war. N9, 120/60 move your FOV to fit it in the 51B and 47D-11/25. The K14 had a minimum setting of 60mil and a maximum of 120 which all fit on the K14 glass. Raise yourself up and move forward in the P51D and you will see the projector lenses. That is the size the 120mil ring should show on the glass. I found a reference to the Navy's Mk8 that it was actualy 200mil with a 100 then 50 ring while in some aircraft it was resized. Most times we only see the 100 and 50 rings in pictures. The Reflexvisier ring in all models is 50mm on the glass plate or 100mil with the stadia marks at about 16mil. Italian SanGior, 100/50 rings. Revi style cross/ring in 205 with MG151/20.

Why am I going here? Hitech has modeled the illusion of speed and distance accuratly. But, our default FOV is not. It's a comprimise to give us a semblance of periferal vision. I used to make the mistake of creating gunsights to fit the ring to the glass plate to look like each countries manuals. The gunsights though in their original specifications on zoom work as the manuals say they should. Especialy if you know the correct ring diameters the historic gunsights used.

60mil = 30ft wingspan at 200 yards. 400 yard deflection hold off 20-30 degrees.
120mil = distance at 200 yards aircraft travels left to right at 100 mph in .254 second.
120mil = 30ft wingspan inside of 200 yards only a blindman misses.

16mil stadia marks = deflection marks to calculate degrees of radi to shoot lead.
100mil = 10m wingspan at 100m.
100mil = 30m wingspan at 300m.

Sight picture and repitition.

[GNucks]

Sight picture and repetition...

Awesome post!  

[muzik]

I read it correctly.  If you get hits 80% of the time you have an 80% hit%.  You're firing a stream of individual shots.  Each one is directed independently of the rest, which is proven with tracers and film.  A shot-stream fired while pulling fans out, it doesn't curve...  In reality, you probably get hits less than 5% of the time.  Even a blind man gets lucky sometimes...

Until you expand your knowledge, and learn the definition of fact vs. opinion, there's no point in arguing with you...  Grab a dictionary, or PM me and I can direct you to the information you need.

Not that I'm seeing from what he's posted here.  Which line/lines are you referring to?

Ya need to work on that comprehension.

I would suggest, when you can't come up with valid arguments, try insults. But you already knew that.