Author Topic: Nakajima Ki-43 Hayabusa ("Oscar")  (Read 45362 times)

Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: Nakajima Ki-43 Hayabusa ("Oscar")
« Reply #90 on: July 21, 2011, 05:05:54 PM »
The only shortcoming I can find w/r Messrs. Ack, Maker, and Karnak's citations was a failure to provide source information. Otherwise, I find the balance of evidence pretty compelling. Had they provided source, arguments counter might attempt to impeach said source(s) - but it looks like an uphill battle. Thus, I'd say there's a pretty good case for inclusion of the III.

As for Shida, well, I'll file "imaginarium" right next to "insaniquarium" in my big book of rhetorical devices, but only with a grim chuckle.
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Offline nrshida

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Re: Nakajima Ki-43 Hayabusa ("Oscar")
« Reply #91 on: July 21, 2011, 05:18:28 PM »
Yes I apologise. But how else can you deal with Krusty? He is like the Energizer Bunny of unsupported claims and he doesn't understand or respect academic method or listen to anyone else. Ever  :rolleyes:
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Offline Wmaker

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Re: Nakajima Ki-43 Hayabusa ("Oscar")
« Reply #92 on: July 21, 2011, 05:51:02 PM »
The only shortcoming I can find w/r Messrs. Ack, Maker, and Karnak's citations was a failure to provide source information.

I mentioned the source in earlier thread. Previous experience has shown that posting sources for Krusty is utterly useless but I'll post this for others to see:
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/store/Ki-43-%E2%80%98Oscar%E2%80%99-Aces-of-World-War-2_9781846034084



About the author:

Hiroshi Ichimura is the son of a JAAF wartime pilot. He has worked as the editor of various modeling magazines in Japan since 1981, and is presently editor-in-chief of Scale Aviation. His publishing house, Dai Nippon Kaiga, has also been releasing Japanese-language Osprey series titles in Japan since 2000 ? indeed, he has translated five of them. The author/co-author of four JAAF-related titles, this is his first book for Osprey.

...a mere amateur compared to Krusty, off course.

EDIT/From an earlier thread: In Japanese publication called Aero Detail #29 Nakajima Ki-43 "Oscar" HAYABUSA the Ki-43-III prodution is said to have been 1727 aircraft from July '44 till end of the war (serials 7001-8727)./EDIT
« Last Edit: July 21, 2011, 06:11:36 PM by Wmaker »
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Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: Nakajima Ki-43 Hayabusa ("Oscar")
« Reply #93 on: July 21, 2011, 05:55:53 PM »
Well, it had some flair, Shida, and I'm not the arbiter anyway.

Otherwise, Maker, so noted.
Some say revenge is a dish best served cold. I say it's usually best served hot, chunky, and foaming. Eventually, you will all die in my vengeance vomit firestorm.

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Nakajima Ki-43 Hayabusa ("Oscar")
« Reply #94 on: July 21, 2011, 08:04:43 PM »
The only shortcoming I can find w/r Messrs. Ack, Maker, and Karnak's citations was a failure to provide source information. Otherwise, I find the balance of evidence pretty compelling. Had they provided source, arguments counter might attempt to impeach said source(s) - but it looks like an uphill battle. Thus, I'd say there's a pretty good case for inclusion of the III.

As for Shida, well, I'll file "imaginarium" right next to "insaniquarium" in my big book of rhetorical devices, but only with a grim chuckle.

Japanese Naval Air Force Fighter Units and Their Aces, 1932-1945

Fiance bought me that book a couple of years ago but finally got around to reading it while I've been convalescing at home over the summer, it's an updated version of the book of the same name that was printed in 1989.  

There is this site from someone that has posted the same information from the 1989 printing of the book.
Japanese Army Air Force Fighter Units
1931 - 1945


ack-ack
« Last Edit: July 21, 2011, 08:19:29 PM by Ack-Ack »
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Nakajima Ki-43 Hayabusa ("Oscar")
« Reply #95 on: July 21, 2011, 08:15:02 PM »
(Image removed from quote.)

If that Ki-43 III was from the 20th, most likely the drop tank was for the ferry flight from one of their three bases in Taiwan and not from escaping the Philippines like the caption suggests.

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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Nakajima Ki-43 Hayabusa ("Oscar")
« Reply #96 on: July 22, 2011, 02:24:02 AM »
Ack, Maker, and Karnak's citations was a failure to provide source information. Otherwise, I find the balance of evidence pretty

Forgot to include this in my reply.  J-Aircraft is an excellent online resource for Japanese aircraft.  Nothing to do with this thread but people may find some pretty interesting stuff about Japanese aircraft.


ack-ack
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Offline Krusty

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Re: Nakajima Ki-43 Hayabusa ("Oscar")
« Reply #97 on: July 22, 2011, 12:42:46 PM »
Wading through the verbal bullplop a few members can only contribute....

I think that some of those units are receiving preproduction airframes. They may not have been called preproduction, but the Japanese had a history of field-testing planes to prove them ready (or not). On the other hand we also have multiple renowned authors quoting the start-date for actual serial production of the Ki-43-III. Green, Francillion, others.

Nakajima stopped producing the Ki-43-II in favor of the Ki-84. It was up to one factory (Tachikawa) to continue Ki-43 production. After this they began producing the Ki-43-III. We know that Nakajima decided against the Ki-43-III in favor of the Ki-84, so the time they stop producing Ki-43-IIs and start producing Ki-84s is also an indication of when the Ki-43 began rolling off production lines.

Citing:
Bergerud (2000)
Francillon (1979)
Molesworth (2008)

This page: http://pwencycl.kgbudge.com/K/i/Ki-43_Oscar.htm

Breaks down the production dates. The lines get blurred because Tachikawa produced Ki-43-IIs along with the Ki-43-III development, and I don't see many sources breaking down the specific numbers. However, we know that Nakajima stopped production of the Ki-43-II in 10/1944. Therefore the production of the -III would fall on Tachikawa after this date. Nakajima is suggested to have made some of the early 1944 prototypes but no production models.

Joe Baugher can be quoted as saying:
"The Ki-43-IIIa was the last Hayabusa variant. Ten prototypes were built starting in May of 1944. It was similar in airframe and armament to the Ki-43 KAI, but was powered by a Najajima Ha-115-II Sakae air-cooled radial rated at 1230 hp at 9185 feet. This engine employed individual exhaust stacks to provide a certain amount of exhaust thrust augmentation. Production began in December of 1944, most of the aircraft being built by Tachikawa Hikoki K.K.."
(as noted previously in other threads:
http://www.warbirdforum.com/hayabus2.htm )

On this j-aircraft production breakdown for the Ki-43 we find similar dates:

http://www.j-aircraft.com/main/newkits/ki43desc.htm

"10 Ki-43-III prototypes (May 1944 - Aug 1945)
    Tachikawa Hikoki K.K. at Tachikawa

2629 Ki-43-II & Ki-43-IIIa production aircraft (May 1943-Aug 1945)

2 Ki-43-IIIb prototypes(spring 1945)
    Tachikawa Dai-Ichi Rikugun Kokusho at Tachikawa"

Those are the production numbers for Ki-43-IIIs, and note again it lumps Ki-43-II dates along with this, because Tachikawa was producing thousands of Ki-43-IIs throughout the war before switching to the Ki-43-III variant.

Referencing several books including Francillion, this is a fairly good write-up of the Ki-43:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=28823&sid=501b41c3e46de622c0471990c6383c39
Although it doesn't specify dates, all the rest of the details supporting Tachikawa are there, reinforcing the rest of this post. See "Pt. 9" of the discussion.

Now as for total production numbers, one or two online places list 1000 Ki-43-III frames out of the total 2600 from Tachikawa, such as:
http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_nakajima_ki-43.html
But it's vague on some of the details and sources cited.

A number of early prototypes were built before December. In fact, earlier in the year as early as May. Do not confuse these with production types. They were used in combat units to field-test the aircraft. This is not unique to the Ki-43-III, and you will also find other units did the same with different airframes (Ki-44 prototypes were flying and fighting over Rangoon, for example -- but again not to be confused with production models).

Commentary on a preproduction Ki-43-III in use with 64th over Burma, so we know the 64th was in the habit of receiving early airframes for combat testing:
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=6015
(Just the easiest reference I can find on google right now.)
We know they also fielded early model (prototype) Ki-44s as well at one point.

So as you can see the early 1944 dates are counting the prototypes. The development phase. This continued through half the year. It may be unclear if 10 were made in May 1944, and then more prototypes as the year progressed, or if it means 10 up until full production. You can also see that series production (serial production) did not begin until the end of the year.

The airplane was built in only one plant. All sources on this plant state the same date for production of this airplane at this plant. Therefore any airplanes before this time (before the production date) must be something other than production craft. They must be preproduction models, whether you want to call them "prototype" or not.


So what is more likely? That all the sources (all sharing the same details) stating when the ONLY factory that made this plane began its production are wrong? Or that the units you're talking about received preproduction models, which we have already seen they did regularly, to test in combat?



For example you might say "Here's an entry from a book showing a Ki-43" -- I'm not denouncing the book as wrong per se. I'm saying that's not a production-run airframe.

So far the only photos I've ever seen of a Ki-43-III fall into 3 categories: 1) circa 1945, sometimes kamikazes 2) airfield wrecks or post-war captures impossible to date (can't say they were there before 10/1944), 3) one instance of a prototype with unusual camo over Burma. I'd be interested to see a Ki-43-III production model from 1944. 1000 were made, right? Surely with the overabundance of Japanese photos on every plane type they had, personal photos, anything like that... Surely there are photos of 64th Sentai's runway with a dozen airframes lined up ready for action? 48th Sentai? 33rd?


P.S. I'm not really all that against them as an inclusion into AH. What I'm arguing is the details about the history of the plane. As a tangent I think they serve little purpose and fill a very small hole in the planeset because of that. So far the history doesn't support claims of widespread use in 1944. The use was limited. We have cited production start dates. We have units known to fly preproduction models in combat. We have established practices of the IJA. From that you can paint a picture.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2011, 12:55:02 PM by Krusty »

Offline Krusty

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Re: Nakajima Ki-43 Hayabusa ("Oscar")
« Reply #98 on: July 22, 2011, 12:54:25 PM »
Given you have provided no supporting evidence beyond "Krusty said so" I can't accept your statement.  Come back with evidence and try again.  While you're at it, look at the evidence supplied elsewhere.

I have provided much more than "krusty said so" and you have seen it before. In several threads now.

WMaker: Before you slipped back to your personal vendetta to insult me, you had a productive post. I'll grant you the Philippines used -IIIs (assuming you are right -- AckAck seems to bring a different light on that photo), and that this was a hotbed of combat, however with all the airframes in use with the Philippines the potential planeset can be filled with many other aircraft of similar or better performance. From AH's standpoint a single region with minimal use of 1 airframe makes it "very" needed? At the same time in history the Ki-44 was out in numbers, the late-model zeros were numerous, we had Ki-84s (the real replacement to the Ki-43-II) and N1Ks and other such airframes. It adds something, yes. I still say it adds very little to an already colorful setup.

AckAck: You seem more knowledgable than "some others" here on this topic. What's your take (be objective, be honest) on the importance of the Ki-43-III and its role in the bigger picture, vis-a-vis its importance to the AH planeset?

Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: Nakajima Ki-43 Hayabusa ("Oscar")
« Reply #99 on: July 22, 2011, 02:44:30 PM »
This is a good response, K. I think the real question, as you've indicated, surrounds the Tachikawa production.I can find no data on the mix between IIs and IIIs there over the period cited. It is also clear that there were 12 "prototypes" of the III made outside Tachikawa.

Anyway, if anyone can crack the Tachikawa nut, I think we've got this one solved. If there was no menaingful III prodution there prior to 12/44, Krusty's argument holds water. If, otoh, there was significant III production there, it does not. I don't think a logic argument will be sufficient here, either, since the lead time required to tool for the jump form II-III is a matter of speculation.

I wonder if those production records survive?

As for your other arg w/r significance in the Phillipines campaign, I find it more compelling if also more subjective. Here again, though, the numbers of III's in the field at the time are material.


Otherwise, that's how we should argue. Patricians used to say the Plebians were unsuited to debate because they let their emotions enter the fray. This last page, despite a little rhetorical needling, the debate has been elevated to the standards of farting through silk -which is to say it beats copping a reesentment and jumping to conclusions about a bunch of guys scattered across the globe, many of whom we've never met.
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Offline nrshida

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Re: Nakajima Ki-43 Hayabusa ("Oscar")
« Reply #100 on: July 22, 2011, 04:34:48 PM »
Yup, first respectable post I've seen from Krusty. Citing references and substantiating his claims. That's all we ask  :aok

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Offline Karnak

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Re: Nakajima Ki-43 Hayabusa ("Oscar")
« Reply #101 on: July 22, 2011, 05:59:03 PM »
Keep in mind that by Krusty's criteria the Bf109K-4 wouldn't be a good addition or needed either....nor the Spitfire Mk XIV or Spitfire Mk XVI or P-47N or P-47M or La-7 or Fw190D-9 or C.205 or F4U-1C or F4U-4 or N1K2-J or Ki-67 or Ar234 or Me163 or Tiger II....
« Last Edit: July 22, 2011, 06:00:40 PM by Karnak »
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Offline nrshida

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Re: Nakajima Ki-43 Hayabusa ("Oscar")
« Reply #102 on: July 23, 2011, 01:15:40 AM »
Agreed, but his research and presentation method is at least credible for once (I do not comment on its accuracy because I know very little about this aircraft).

It's never been clear to me that HiTech / HTC's criteria for selecting planes for inclusion is meant to reflect a proportionate amount of production aircraft anyway. It seems to mostly be an assumption on the part of some of the forum members about that issue. I'd far rather include the types and variants that add diversity and bring something fun to the party any day of the week. If you're going to all the trouble of making the 3d model in the first place, and the external differences are not so significant, then why not add all three of them. Three planes for the price of one and a half.

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Offline Void

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Re: Nakajima Ki-43 Hayabusa ("Oscar")
« Reply #103 on: July 23, 2011, 01:35:22 AM »
Ki-43. What a sexy beast.
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Offline Wmaker

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Re: Nakajima Ki-43 Hayabusa ("Oscar")
« Reply #104 on: July 23, 2011, 06:16:09 AM »
Keep in mind that by Krusty's criteria the Bf109K-4 wouldn't be a good addition or needed either....nor the Spitfire Mk XIV or Spitfire Mk XVI or P-47N or P-47M or La-7 or Fw190D-9 or C.205 or F4U-1C or F4U-4 or N1K2-J or Ki-67 or Ar234 or Me163 or Tiger II....

Exactly.

We are talking about a variant of an aircraft that was the backbone of the IJAAF. Despite of Krusty's crying, it deserves to be depicted with similar variety as the fighters of the USAAF for example.
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