Author Topic: Saw a plane crash yesterday  (Read 2066 times)

Offline icepac

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Re: Saw a plane crash yesterday
« Reply #45 on: May 16, 2011, 06:44:56 PM »
Angus, are you saying the guy in the plane (or one of them) was one of the stars of "Lazy Town" or his stunt double?


Sporticus needing a stunt double?......Never!

He actually performed stunts on a Jackie Chan movie.

Offline Babalonian

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Re: Saw a plane crash yesterday
« Reply #46 on: May 16, 2011, 07:43:19 PM »
What you did was admirable, Angus; I :salute you.  However, isn't a handheld fire extinguisher too little, too late for an avgas fire?  :headscratch:  My dad always told me that the fire department hates it when people try to put out the fire themselves.  Is it different in your country?

-Penguin

Depends what the extinguisher is rated for and if you know how to properly use it.  I forget the ratings, I think there are/were three, ranging from simple compressed water dispensers to foam-dispensing types, but many of the common ones are rated for haz-mat, combustables and electrical and dispence a powdery substance rather than a liquid like water that chokes out fires by eliminating the oxygen rather than dilute or disperse like with using plain water and liquid fuels.


You are correct, I meant housefire, but I still don't have an answer pertaining to whether one should attempt to put out a fire in their plane with a handheld extinguisher.

-Penguin

Mostly this is because people do it dangerously and wrong, especially when it's their own home and their own possessions going up in flame.  A lot of time what firefighters do the most and are trained the best at is to tulips a situation, draw a plan of action and most importantly what property owners can't do - draw a line in the sand taking in consideration the safety of everyone, sc1@# the material property we'll do the best for it we can after everyone is safe.

I've had the unfortunate pleasure of experiencing a house fire from an occupant's perspective, but have also seen a number in person as a ride-along with a family friend who was an LA City fire chief.  Priority one is people and animals out.  Priority two is contact the fire department (not from within the burning structure).

It becomes a problem when people go back inside to get their photo albums or to try and fight the fire before firefighters get there (in an unwise and unsafe and/or uneffective manner, a garden hose is really no better than pissing once the fire is consuming the structure - instead use your hose to wet down your neighbors house if its imediatley next to yours and threatened by burning before the fire department shows up, at least that might have a chance of doing some serious good).  There is just nothing a typical homeowner can effectively and safely do, at all, short of having your own fire hose and access to a pump or hydrant.
-Babalon
"Let's light 'em up and see how they smoke."
POTW IIw Oink! - http://www.PigsOnTheWing.org

Wow, you guys need help.

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Saw a plane crash yesterday
« Reply #47 on: May 16, 2011, 07:56:23 PM »
And Ack-Ack: It was the guy doubling as Sportacus in our country on a countrywide children entertainment tour. My kids were on the morning show, and he was heading for the Westman Islands by air for the next.
He was wearing the blue suit and the mustache.

Oh, so it's looking good for my theory that your kids were responsible.

ack-ack
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Offline colmbo

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Re: Saw a plane crash yesterday
« Reply #48 on: May 17, 2011, 12:19:42 AM »
Depends what the extinguisher is rated for and if you know how to properly use it.  I forget the ratings, I think there are/were three, ranging from simple compressed water dispensers to foam-dispensing types, but many of the common ones are rated for haz-mat, combustables and electrical and dispence a powdery substance rather than a liquid like water that chokes out fires by eliminating the oxygen rather than dilute or disperse like with using plain water and liquid fuels.

There are 4 classifications:

A  Combustible solids such as paper, wood
B  Combustible liquids -- fuel, oil, solvents
C  Electrical Fires (these are really Class A and/or Class B fires on an energized item)
D  Combustable metals -- Magnesium

Dry Chemical extinguishers interrupt the chemical reaction required for fire...they do not eliminate the oxygen.
Columbo

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return."

Fate whispers to the warrior "You cannot withstand the storm" and the warrior whispers back "I AM THE STORM"

Offline DrDea

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Re: Saw a plane crash yesterday
« Reply #49 on: May 17, 2011, 12:53:55 AM »
Good Call Angus!   :salute

Side Note:
I love watching Penguin troll, many times it leads from a good post to an argument within a few posts after he arrives   :rolleyes:
Along with the patented Alfred E Newman look you can almost see while hearing "Who me?" Almost smarmy.
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Offline Babalonian

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Re: Saw a plane crash yesterday
« Reply #50 on: May 17, 2011, 01:29:13 PM »
There are 4 classifications:

A  Combustible solids such as paper, wood
B  Combustible liquids -- fuel, oil, solvents
C  Electrical Fires (these are really Class A and/or Class B fires on an energized item)
D  Combustable metals -- Magnesium

Dry Chemical extinguishers interrupt the chemical reaction required for fire...they do not eliminate the oxygen.

Oh yeah, it's coming back now.  Dry chem extinguishers make an awful mess of the air (I remember that from public school, lol) and can displace air/oxygen otherwise accessible to the fire and the reactions, but since thermodynamics of a fire is always trying to circulate fresh air in and smoke up/out it won't be there for more than a second and will have no impact in that fashion... you are correct they interfere directly with the fuel and it's chemical reaction.  I miss fire safety and science, was fun. 

I can only recall three extinguisher classfiications though, is that a recently updated list?  I think I was taught to treat electricals as class As or Bs depending on if it was energized and how much energy. 

-Babalon
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POTW IIw Oink! - http://www.PigsOnTheWing.org

Wow, you guys need help.

Offline colmbo

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Re: Saw a plane crash yesterday
« Reply #51 on: May 17, 2011, 01:37:37 PM »


I can only recall three extinguisher classfiications though, is that a recently updated list?  I think I was taught to treat electricals as class As or Bs depending on if it was energized and how much energy. 



There have been 4 classifications (In the US) since at least 1979 when I entered into a career of Aircraft Crash/Rescue.  Since then they have changed the "fire triangle" to the "fire tetrahedron".  Instead of Fuel - Heat - Oxygen it is now Fuel - Heat - Oxygen - Chemical Reaction.
Columbo

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return."

Fate whispers to the warrior "You cannot withstand the storm" and the warrior whispers back "I AM THE STORM"

Offline Penguin

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Re: Saw a plane crash yesterday
« Reply #52 on: May 17, 2011, 03:46:41 PM »
Depends what the extinguisher is rated for and if you know how to properly use it.  I forget the ratings, I think there are/were three, ranging from simple compressed water dispensers to foam-dispensing types, but many of the common ones are rated for haz-mat, combustables and electrical and dispence a powdery substance rather than a liquid like water that chokes out fires by eliminating the oxygen rather than dilute or disperse like with using plain water and liquid fuels.


Mostly this is because people do it dangerously and wrong, especially when it's their own home and their own possessions going up in flame.  A lot of time what firefighters do the most and are trained the best at is to tulips a situation, draw a plan of action and most importantly what property owners can't do - draw a line in the sand taking in consideration the safety of everyone, sc1@# the material property we'll do the best for it we can after everyone is safe.

I've had the unfortunate pleasure of experiencing a house fire from an occupant's perspective, but have also seen a number in person as a ride-along with a family friend who was an LA City fire chief.  Priority one is people and animals out.  Priority two is contact the fire department (not from within the burning structure).

It becomes a problem when people go back inside to get their photo albums or to try and fight the fire before firefighters get there (in an unwise and unsafe and/or uneffective manner, a garden hose is really no better than pissing once the fire is consuming the structure - instead use your hose to wet down your neighbors house if its imediatley next to yours and threatened by burning before the fire department shows up, at least that might have a chance of doing some serious good).  There is just nothing a typical homeowner can effectively and safely do, at all, short of having your own fire hose and access to a pump or hydrant.

I think I understand now.  If it's done right, then it can be done.  However, most homeowners put their possesions before their lives and end up getting killed.

For my next question:

So would a class B extinguisher work on a burning airplane?

-Penguin

Offline Babalonian

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Re: Saw a plane crash yesterday
« Reply #53 on: May 17, 2011, 04:44:37 PM »
Well this was in the mid to late 90s for me.  The fire chief who I learned most of this stuff from definetly would of gotten the pre-79 version for most of it.  He got his first cources through serving in the military and being a pilot in Air Crash/Rescue.  First he was a Globemaster II pilot and then I know sometime before he did a couple tours in Nam he got swapped or volunteered for piloting Hueys and that's where he got most his Air Crash/Rescue training and also his training for piloting the LA Fire helicopters that were all hueys for the longest time, and I think they're still being used.  And I learned from him about the triangle, nothing but the triangle.  He never had anything positive to say about that "newfangled" tetrahedron, he said to always go by the triangle and that in extreme cases where you need to refer to or go by a tetrahedron to tell you something is out of the ordinary about a blaze then you probabley shouldn't be a first responder or even fighting it, lol.

Boy he was always a real character, the oldest man to request working a couple years straight at the rebuilt South Central house after the riots tore down the original one.  He hated working with all the old farts a duffers that got the more laid back houses, hated dragging them out to do their job because they were getting lazy, old and content.  Loved the young guys and recruits that got short-strawed into working at stations like the main South Central one, they'd jump outa bed in the middle of the night and be ready to rock n' roll even if it was a silly bandaid call or another sheered firehydrant by a DUI (crack has an especialy strong tendancy to attract abusing drivers twords yellow hydrants).  His favorite of the lazy houses though was the one right next to Van Nuys airport, and it was my favorite one period, it's the one I would go out of my way to visit if he was working.  Front half on the street is all normal 1-ladder, 2-pumper, and an ambulance bay with accomodations for full crew - back half was all the airport and runway emergency responce "trucks", and to call those things trucks is a HUGE understatement in the size and scale of those mega-rigs - then a short drive around the taxiway and north-end of the runway to get to the LA fire and rescue helicopter hangars and main maintenance hangar.

He always liked that I joked with him that I never understood how he went from flying something as sturdy and reliable as a 4-propped globemaster that was made to fly, to a huey that had only one-and-a-half props that was made for controlled falling-to-the-ground.
-Babalon
"Let's light 'em up and see how they smoke."
POTW IIw Oink! - http://www.PigsOnTheWing.org

Wow, you guys need help.

Offline colmbo

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Re: Saw a plane crash yesterday
« Reply #54 on: May 17, 2011, 09:06:36 PM »
I think I understand now.  If it's done right, then it can be done.  However, most homeowners put their possesions before their lives and end up getting killed.

For my next question:

So would a class B extinguisher work on a burning airplane?

-Penguin

If the airplane is made out of flammable liquid, yes.   :devil

Once fought a Maule that caught fire during a maintenance run (loose fuel fitting).  I used a quick repsonse vehicle with 500 pounds of Purple K dry chem...knocked the fire down RIGHT NOW....then it flared up again in the cockpit...knocked it down...flared up...knocked it down and took a peek...was the seat cushion burning.  Another fireman grabbed a bucket and walked down to the lake and got some water...seat fire dead.
Columbo

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return."

Fate whispers to the warrior "You cannot withstand the storm" and the warrior whispers back "I AM THE STORM"

Offline Angus

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Re: Saw a plane crash yesterday
« Reply #55 on: May 18, 2011, 07:08:34 AM »
We had a housefire some years ago. Someone (read Canadian tourist that had checked out and left) left a burning candle in the toilet-paper shelf.
Shelf caught fire, the paper etc. Bonny big fire.
One of the household (A german girl) came by and with an impressive swiftness, grabbed the estinguisher and quelched the fire, then closed the door and called for help.
The fire was dead, but the fire brigade smoke-vented the flat.
The heat was enough to melt the plastics in the shower cabin, as well as electical cables in the ceiling (behind plaster) and the lights on the ceiling as well.
But the bottom line is, that she probably saved the house with her quick reaction.
Now in an aircraft, there may be sparks flying, a cabin fire, or the avgas fire. I think that if the avgas would have caught fire, it would have been a "kaboom" and nothing I could have done. And yet, it does not always happen. A friend of mine witnessed a crash where the aircraft caught fire, but the pilot and passenger yet crawled out of the wreck and walked away unhurt. Looked like something out of a James Bond movie he said.
So, that's that ;)
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline colmbo

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Re: Saw a plane crash yesterday
« Reply #56 on: May 18, 2011, 08:03:44 AM »

Now in an aircraft, there may be sparks flying, a cabin fire, or the avgas fire. I think that if the avgas would have caught fire, it would have been a "kaboom" and nothing I could have done. And yet, it does not always happen. A friend of mine witnessed a crash where the aircraft caught fire, but the pilot and passenger yet crawled out of the wreck and walked away unhurt. Looked like something out of a James Bond movie he said.
So, that's that ;)

In all the aircraft fires I've been involved in the only one where we had any "kaboom" was the Super Cub that spun in with 4 5 gallon cans of gas in teh back.  One ruptured on impact, the other 3 cooked off as we fought the fire.  I was working law enforcement that day so I was working a foam line wearing my cop uniform and Stetson...pretty exciting having a flaming gas can go rocketing by.   :O
Columbo

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return."

Fate whispers to the warrior "You cannot withstand the storm" and the warrior whispers back "I AM THE STORM"

Offline Angus

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Re: Saw a plane crash yesterday
« Reply #57 on: May 18, 2011, 10:36:46 AM »
Whoahhh, that must have been something.
Anyway, back to Sportacus.
He does not need a stunt double, but he cannot be in many places at the same time, - hence the double. "He" has been touring the country in some kindergarten-project.
The original is a very fit fellow, and he did indeed do a baddie in a Jackie Chan film. He should be in his forties now, but heck,  - how old is Jackie :D
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Angus

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Re: Saw a plane crash yesterday
« Reply #58 on: May 19, 2011, 10:13:47 AM »
Someone called me "Johnny on the spot".
Oddly enough, my first name is "Jon",and some call me Johnny.
My middle name "Logi" means flame, or fire.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)