Scissors ??

[Klam]

Can't for the life get this scissors thing working.

Any advice would be great.

Ok...so I get bounced,  the con has some smash, I try and get this "Holy Grail" of rolling scissors working to get him to blow by me. 

Never got it right yet.........have more success with flat, left right scissors.

I fly looking back at the con and try and get the rolls out of phase, if I get it, I continue my turn and can usually egress.............only to die by hitting some cartoon vegetation

I'm guessing the geometry of my rolling scissors is wrong together with my throttle work and what I'm supposed to be looking at. 
Power on going up or down? 
Been flying spits as a main ride for over a tour or 2 so flaps don't exist till landing.

Any films or links to previous questions/info on the same thing you guys think may help would be great.

Been playing this for a while now, 'bout time I learnt to fight

Thanks

Klam 

[morfiend]

  Hey Klam,


  Next time you see me in the TA let me know you want to work on the rolling scissors and I'lll see if I cant help you out.


     

[Soulyss]

Nothing beats stick time, but the example here (http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/rollingscissors/rollingscissors.htm) should help solidify the concepts involved if you had any questions there.

[Klam]

Thanks guys

Have seen that Bad Boy description before.  I understand how the scissors are used but am not sure how it
looks from the pilot view. 


Morfiend, thank you for the time....will see you soon in the TA

<<S>>

Klam

[Delirium]

The biggest thing to remember when scissoring is to put your lift vector behind the bandit. If you place it on the enemy aircraft (or worse yet, in front), you will not obtain favorable positioning during the scissor unless you're near a dead stop.

[Klam]

The biggest thing to remember when scissoring is to put your lift vector behind the bandit. If you place it on the enemy aircraft (or worse yet, in front), you will not obtain favorable positioning during the scissor unless you're near a dead stop.

Ok..I sort of get that.  I want to fly to  the air behind him? 
Using the "up" view try and keep the bandit forward of centre.  Is that once the scissors has started?

Not sure how to initiate this move into a scissors without getting shot to bits.  I seem to offer up a plane form target.
Maybe I try and start it too early?

Will try my best to get some film

Thanks

Klam

[shiv]

Ok..I sort of get that.  I want to fly to  the air behind him?  
Using the "up" view try and keep the bandit forward of centre.  Is that once the scissors has started?

Not sure how to initiate this move into a scissors without getting shot to bits.  I seem to offer up a plane form target.
Maybe I try and start it too early?

Will try my best to get some film

Thanks

Klam

When you get bounced you want to do a barrel roll defense to initiate the scissors. My version:

Wait till he's about 1.5 K out and closing, then go into a left turn. When he gets 800-600 roll level, pull up and roll back right. He should be under you, about to shoot out in front. You may have a brief snapshot here.

Now if the con tries to pull back at you you'll be in a rolling scissors. Since this is the first pass it's more likely the con will zoom back up and out to reset.

A great place to practice this is at DA lake. Go out to the middle of the lake at 4K and wait for helpful volunteers.

A much better description of this :  
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,276908.msg3476738.html#msg3476738

[JOACH1M]

Chop throttle...

[TequilaChaser]

When you get bounced you want to do a barrel roll defense to initiate the scissors. My version:

Wait till he's about 1.5 K out and closing, then go into a left turn. When he gets 800-600 roll level, pull up and roll back right. He should be under you, about to shoot out in front. You may have a brief snapshot here.

Now if the con tries to pull back at you'll be in a rolling scissors. Since this is the first pass it's more likely the con will zoom back up and out to reset.

A great place to practice this is at DA lake. Go out to the middle of the lake at 4K and wait for helpful volunteers.

A much better description of this : 
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,276908.msg3476738.html#msg3476738

shiv pretty much explains how to try and force a rolling scissors battle....... it doesn't matter too much which direction you go for the break Left or right. but it can be easier done going left in direction to set it up in certian planes using the torque / prop rotation direction.....

the main thing, and Klam, you even said it is breaking to early or telegraphing your moves...... I suggest you work on learning to read / recognize the closure rates.... if they are hauling tail breaking at 1.5K to 1.2K out might work..... if they are only slightly faster than you you need to sucker them in closer and break at 1K to 800 yds.....

practicing to learn and judge E state of your opponent in reference to your own plane is a huge leap once you get the knack of it on a regular basis....

I would refrain from chopping throttle when doing a barrel roll defense or setting up and doing a rolling scissors....

bout the only time I use a chop throttle scenario is at the end of a flat scissors and both me and my opponent are riding the stall edge... you need all the power &/or wep you can get especially at the beginning of the engagement.....

hope this helps....

TC ( just built a new PC, have been out for a bit, but hope to be back soon as I get AH loaded and my controlers/sound/mic , etc. all set back up )

[Qrsu]

Trade horizontal momentum for vertical displacement. Keep your throttle up and point your nose high, create a tighter corkscrew than your opponent while maintaining your overall E state and you'll create the horizontal separation needed to gain the advantage while not bleeding off all of your speed.

It will take some practice, as people have said. I would recommending filming your fights where you're attempting the scissor and watch with the trails on. You'll be able to see the aforementioned corkscrew pattern. It's also good to post films here for analysis.

Good luck!

[PuppetZ]

The way Big Rat initiate the rolling scissor is by breaking low (a very steep break like 30ish degree from straight down) into into the bandit while deploying maneuvering flaps (if availableand if at the right speed, keep em out you'll need em as you probably wont be building speed up in this maneuvre) when he gets within 1k of you. As TC mentioned, the moment the icon change from 1k to 1000 is the point where you want to initiate your break. No real need for maneuver before that. Keep the con in your upper view and start barrel rolling.  Now once in the scissor, be mindful of not only your speed, but also of your forward movement (ie how much ground you cover). You want to barrel roll around the center axis while keeping your forward momentum slower than your opponent's (the point in keeping your lift vector behind the bandit). Be mindful also of terra firma if down low. Try not to pick up too much speed in the downward part of the barrel roll(throttle control) and wep going up. In practice, I've been killed more often by the ground than by ennemy bullets.

Ok...so I get bounced,  the con has some smash, I try and get this "Holy Grail" of rolling scissors working to get him to blow by me.  

If he has more speed than you, you might want to have a look at a simpler break and reversal to get a snapshot in before he gets out of range or the barrel roll defense.

Not sure if you can get alot of success in the rolling scissor with a spit as the roll rate is not stellar. Depends what your up against. I've been practicing this in a f4u for a few weeks now and it's very good at it. Good flaps, roll rate and rudder to assist roll a slow speed.

Just my 2 cents. I'm certainly no expert on this.
Oh! And welcome back TC!

[Klam]

Big thanks to all for the info/advice    <<S>>

Some real helpful descriptions and links to other threads.

Done the reading...now for the practice...free easy kills for all......till I get it down pat 

thanks again

Klam

[Big Rat]

Klam,

If you catch me in the TA, feel free to bounce me.  I normally prefer to fight most from a defensive posture with rolling scissors being my main plan of reversal.  Beware the planes you get into rolling scissors with, planes with a better roll rate and can get into flaps early tend to have an advantage, as they can roll and cut speed rapidly.  It can be done with spits, but the flaps tend to handicap them. 

 
BigRat   

[Owlblink]

Not sure if you can get alot of success in the rolling scissor with a spit as the roll rate is not stellar. Depends what your up against. I've been practicing this in a f4u for a few weeks now and it's very good at it. Good flaps, roll rate and rudder to assist roll a slow speed.

I have a 109 question in regards to siccors that might lend for some help in comparison. Would you guys say that it would be better, barring certain situations of course, to use a flat siccor in a 109 when up against something like an F4U with it's great flap and roll rate usage, and maybe even a spit16 given it's handeling, or would you try to play the rolling siccors?

If I have a spit on my six, my goal is to (given no enemy cons close by) slow the heck down to screw with the spits slowspeed handeling and to try and cut inside his turn (though smart spit pilots will extend and come about). With an F4U, slowing them down would work too if played right. I've lost a number of rolling siccors to F4U's while in 109's, but most likely that has a lot to do with both their planes strength AND my poor use of rolling siccors


I hope by asking this question that it might surve to also help out the original poster by getting an idea of plane type comparisons

[Shane]

by flat scissor you mean in a circle with yo-yo's?

in either case, flat or rolling, if i were the 109 (or just about any other plane) and unable to make the hog overshoot (ahh, not a total noob) i'll make use of the surplus e (acceleration) that a 109 (and many other planes) has and go vertical... the hog will not be able to keep nose up. the trick is making sure he can't keep/get guns on you long enough to do anything except stall out. of course the higher up you go, the more room/time there is to work with.

a slow hog is a dead(ly) hog depending on how you fight it. most people just sorta panic when they see that big blue thing just hanging there spitting out a stream of six .50s