Westland Whirlwind

[bustr]

Merlin engines would have been the Westland Welkin High Altitiude fighter project.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westland_Welkin

The Whirlwind was such a small airframe with two engines, how much evolution by more powerful engine upgrades could it have gone through before the Mossi and Beau were a better all around 2 engined choice for the same jobs? For Aces High purposes it will be a low level brother of trouble with the Beaufighter probably equaly flown by the fans of both.

[Scherf]

Once upon a time when the earth was green, I went throught part of the UK National Archives (then the Public Records Office) online listing of files, looking for flight test reports.

I believe I found a reference for Whirlie tests, will see if I can dig out the file number.

Nota Bene, I don't have the actual file, some bright young spark would actually have to go to Kew to copy it themselves, or pony up for a researcher to do it for them.



Edit - Found the reference, it's AVIA 18/691, "Whirlwind aircraft: performance and handling trials".

[JUGgler]

Bumpity bump bump!




JUGgler

[Guppy35]

Someone say Beaufighter?

[Karnak]

Someone say Beaufighter?

Now Guppy, how much mud moving would you do with that Beaufighter?  I bet you'd spend more time spreading Beau parts over the landscape trying to use it as a fighter than moving mud with it.

[nrshida]

Bea, Bea, Bea, Whirlwind  

Lately I can't sleep because I've been worrying about the Whirlwind True she's a beaut, how can two engines not be fun, perfect armament and visibility, am/fm radio and electric windows etc. BUT...

All of the subjective comments regarding it's wonderful handling, especially its stability at slow speeds aside the wing loading still seems a little high at over 40 lb/ft². Even though reports suggest it was more than a match for the early 109s, they could just mean in terms of speed etcetera, which was after all apparently the obsession of the day.

My current favourite that we actually have in Aces High, the Nakajima Ki-84-Ia is around the 35 lb/ft² mark. Why I bring that plane up is because they both have similar flaps which increase wing area when deployed. Even the Nakajima's wing loading looks on the high side compared to other aircraft that I know I can compete with in a close in manoeuvring fight (again slow speed stability and turn radius playing an important role).

My question is: given the Whirlwind has that truly enormous Fowler flap (please refer to the video in my previous post) which extends for perhaps more than two thirds of its 45 ft wingspan, as well as manual slats, could we expect a similar improvement in turning radius at slow speeds than the (relatively) high wing loading suggests?

Can you calculate or rather estimate an adjusted wing loading with the flap deployed? Is there a rough way to work out the increased lift?

Are any of the mathematically minded, aerodynamically knowledgeable players interested enough to furnish an explanation to a humble student with dyscalculia but a genuine interest?

[Debrody]

Shida,
i guess it would turn like a 110c. Its just a speculation, but i "guess" the same size, weight, about the same engine power and wing area will make theese planes simmilar.
You know that the ki-84 is an amazing brick without flaps, its turn radius is 600 yard-ish. Slightly better than the 109K or the pony. But with those fowler-wonders it can turn in 445yards as Gonzo's charts, but the very low speed handling is better than any other aircraft in game. Gonzo says the niki turns in 415 yards, but you know ho easily can the ki84 outscissor the niki.
   So, those flaps made a 25% boost in the turn radius and an azzkicker boost in the low-speed handling. I think we can expect the same result on this Whirlwind too. The 110C can turn around in 600 yards too without, 430 with flaps. I "think" the Whirlwind was able to do the same or a little bit better. This turn radius is better than the spit16s, with better very-low-speed handling expected from the fowler-design.
   Again, im not an expert, its just shameless speculation.
<S>

[nrshida]

That's a very useful opinion bud. Don't really fly the 110, I'll take it for a spin and see what it's like. Split flaps on the 110?

Interesting perspective in the percentage increase with the Fowlers. I'll try and at least make a rough estimate of the increase in area, of course the angle changes too. Does anybody know if leading edge slats also contribute to lift or only stability or perhaps they do add lift by giving the ability to hold a higher angle of attack?

[Guppy35]

Now Guppy, how much mud moving would you do with that Beaufighter?  I bet you'd spend more time spreading Beau parts over the landscape trying to use it as a fighter than moving mud with it.

Absolutely!  Give me my VIF and off I go.  4 20mm and 6 303s.  I can have all kinds of fun with that

Give me some shipping convoys to go after and I might start spreading Beau parts over water a lot too!

[B-17]

It only climbs 1,500 fpm (slower than a 110c) and only holds 60 rounds per cannon,
so the same firing time as a Spit V, not too good.

so, no gunner=not as good as 110

but 2 engines=better than spit V?

[Debrody]

so, no gunner=not as good as 110

but 2 engines=better than spit V?

?

[B-17]

The Whirlwind has no gunner, which means no tail cover, which means not as good as the Me 110, but it has 2 engines, which means room for one failure, which is an area lacking in a Spit v.

[Tyrannis]

The Whirlwind has no gunner, which means no tail cover, which means not as good as the Me 110, but it has 2 engines, which means room for one failure, which is an area lacking in a Spit v.

the tail gunner on the 110 is of little to no use, it barely can defend the 110, and is basically a BB gun.

Most 110 pilots find it more of a hinderance, and dump the ammo out of it on takeoff as an attempt to shed some weight.

[B-17]

the tail gunner on the 110 is of little to no use, it barely can defend the 110, and is basically a BB gun.

Most 110 pilots find it more of a hinderance, and dump the ammo out of it on takeoff as an attempt to shed some weight.

First night in the DA on my two weeks, I shot down two guys with those twin machine guns.

[Debrody]

Idk why you quoted Steele. He never mentioned the lack of the tail gunner, anyway your chances are better in the 110 is you try to use your maneuverability not those BBs. Yes the 110c is quite nimble, i have no problems against spits in it. Steele also mentioned that the firing time is very short, same as the spit5, about 6-7 seconds.

Shida,
did some more research, and found that the fowler flaps biggest advantage is the improved turn rate over the radius. The P38 turns a sustained circle in 20 seconds without and 18.2 seconds with flaps, while the turn radius is still very large. The ki turns around in 17.5 without, and 15.8 with flaps. Just to compare, the 109s flaps only imrove 0.5-0.7 seconds on the turn rate, and even the f4u1a turns 19.2 without and 18.7 with flaps while the turn radius becames very small. The pony or the jug loses some turn rate when they open their flaps while the turn radius decreases about 20-25%.
So, what the fowler wonder really improves is the turn rate, not the radius.