Author Topic: Severe weather/tornadoes  (Read 3067 times)

Offline Lepape2

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Re: Severe weather/tornadoes
« Reply #45 on: May 26, 2011, 02:16:15 PM »
Lepape, you better "duck and cover",  :lol ,all the states south of Quebec are in tornado watch, and looks like the front is moving NE to Montreal;
http://www.weather.gov/

:rofl :rofl :rofl
Oh please someone SAVE ME!!!

EDIT: in all seriousness, guys, stay stafe. Looks very bad down there.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2011, 02:19:18 PM by Lepape2 »
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Offline F22RaptorDude

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Re: Severe weather/tornadoes
« Reply #46 on: May 26, 2011, 02:33:43 PM »
I think hiding in the baththub is the last thing I'd do if an F5 tornado rips my home appart. For me it sounds a bit like the "Duck and Cover" video during the cold war. Finding a neighbor with a basement and become good friends with him is the best idea to prevent you from becoming hazardous debris...

You saw the destruction after the last devastating Missouri tornado? I'm sure the closet you would be hiding in will be a couple miles away from your home there...
Don't underestimate the power of these things.
I meant it more as a option if a tornado is to close. Hiding in the center of your house is the best thing to do if its close cause the middle is often the sturdiest. A bath tub can also work. I mean i'd prefer the closet idea. Around here no one in my neighborhood has a basement so you kinda have separate rules for different scenarios.
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Offline Tyrannis

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Re: Severe weather/tornadoes
« Reply #47 on: May 26, 2011, 02:46:45 PM »
I think hiding in the baththub is the last thing I'd do if an F5 tornado rips my home appart. For me it sounds a bit like the "Duck and Cover" video during the cold war. Finding a neighbor with a basement and become good friends with him is the best idea to prevent you from becoming hazardous debris...

You saw the destruction after the last devastating Missouri tornado? I'm sure the closet you would be hiding in will be a couple miles away from your home there...
Don't underestimate the power of these things.
it is a little naive, but it IS what your told to do if you live in a house without a basement.

Offline ROX

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Re: Severe weather/tornadoes
« Reply #48 on: May 26, 2011, 02:48:42 PM »
Sad to see a thread of positive original intent get wrestled into some folks public urination match.  :rolleyes:

There are a few things to consider from these threads this week.

If you live in an area even slightly prone to tornados or flooding get a NOAA weather radio.  The life you save may be your own and your own family.  The responsibility for saving your own bacon (as well as possessions) is yours & yours alone.

Have a tornado/flood plan in advance and follow it.  If you have to improvise because a certain part of a situation has changed, improvise in whatever way is the safest.  No, not every home in America can have a basement or crawlspace.  I wouldn't trust a crawlspace.  We live on a mountainside so we are lucky that the back side of the property slopes to allow a full stand-up (with metal lockable door) storm shelter with light as well as a place to hang emergency radios directly underneath the house (as if a partial basement, you can't live there but it's a GREAT storm shelter for us and the dogs).  It's dry, completely surrounded by cinderblock and concrete under Steel I-beam construction.  We're lucky.  Folks 200 miles due south of me in Louisiana are so close to the water table they can't even bury people below ground much less build a basement.  We have more tornados than they do but they have more hurricanes than we do.  Truth is--even the cable TV networks are telling people that if they have no other option--get everyone into the bathtub and put a mattress over you.  It may be the thing that saves your bacon.

In April a tornado killed 2 local people (friends of my wife) right here in town.  Seeing a 26 year old man in the same casket as a 15 month old little girl (his daughter) is all the heart wrenching wake-up that anyone needs to realize this is life and death serious.  We've had 10 or so state deaths in April and had another 4 deaths night before last--all from tornados.  

Oh, and HUGE difference between "Storm Spotters" and "Storm Chasers"  Be a "Storm Spotter"...they get training and usually need to get certafied.  "Storm Chasers" are almost always untrained hot dogs that put themselves and others in danger simply for a few seconds of footage for youtube.  I wish youtube would refuse their videos.  It's like "The MTV produced films with asanine stunts called after a Biblical term for a donkey" in it's most dangerous extreme.

PS--AN EF-4 or 5 Tornado is almost impossible to plan against. As seen in Alabama and even in Joplin--People in Joplin in a brick & mortar hospital died from tornado injuries.  A Few at that hospital died when the tornado knocked out commercial power as well as their back-up generator and a few people on ventilators in ICU died.  Yeah, there were "ambu" bags there but if nurses are injured and can't get to that patient they die in 5 minutes...sad.  Bottom line:  You can have a nice comfy basement or protective shelter and an EF-4 or 5 can still send you and your belongings into the air counties away.  You might get lucky vs an EF 4 or 5.  Emphasis on LUCKY.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2011, 03:13:14 PM by ROX »

Offline Babalonian

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Re: Severe weather/tornadoes
« Reply #49 on: May 26, 2011, 04:00:24 PM »
With these F4-F5 tornadoes roaming around how come every house doesn't have an underground shelter already? You'd think that would be mandatory like having reinforced structure on earthquake zones.

California seismic and safety codes as mandated by OSHPD would of gone light-years for that hospital that got hit too.  That whole incident has us shaking our heads at how many emergency generators at hospitals in this country, outside our state, aren't bolted/secured to slabs or foundations around this country, not to mention the 5 or so patients that got sucked out of their rooms and died.

I know I can plug in another "progressive California, leading the way" pitch, but I sincerely hope those of you in Tornado Alley with concern are writing your state legislatures.


Meatwad, do you guys have a low water table or live in a flood plain?  If not, your neighborhood should pitch in and discuss building some community shelters, it's one of those things that everyone doesn't really know when or how badly you'll need it until it's too late.


Sad to see a thread of positive original intent get wrestled into some folks public urination match.  :rolleyes:


That time of the year, it'll only get worse the closer we get to July.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2011, 04:03:22 PM by Babalonian »
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Offline F22RaptorDude

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Re: Severe weather/tornadoes
« Reply #50 on: May 26, 2011, 04:13:08 PM »
That time of the year, it'll only get worse the closer we get to July.
Cause all the kids are out of school.
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Offline Slash27

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Re: Severe weather/tornadoes
« Reply #51 on: May 26, 2011, 04:36:15 PM »
Oh, and HUGE difference between "Storm Spotters" and "Storm Chasers"  Be a "Storm Spotter"...they get training and usually need to get certafied.  "Storm Chasers" are almost always untrained hot dogs that put themselves and others in danger simply for a few seconds of footage for youtube.  I wish youtube would refuse their videos.  It's like "The MTV produced films with asanine stunts called after a Biblical term for a donkey" in it's most dangerous extreme.

PS--AN EF-4 or 5 Tornado is almost impossible to plan against. As seen in Alabama and even in Joplin--People in Joplin in a brick & mortar hospital died from tornado injuries.  A Few at that hospital died when the tornado knocked out commercial power as well as their back-up generator and a few people on ventilators in ICU died.  Yeah, there were "ambu" bags there but if nurses are injured and can't get to that patient they die in 5 minutes...sad.  Bottom line:  You can have a nice comfy basement or protective shelter and an EF-4 or 5 can still send you and your belongings into the air counties away.  You might get lucky vs an EF 4 or 5.  Emphasis on LUCKY.
 

Well, to generalize chasers and spotters as being two different things is offbase. The two go hand in hand. I can cite examples of yahoo chasers but the NWS does rely on chasers who are trained spotters. A lot of them are very well equipped and have years of experience. I don't really agree you can not prepare for an EF4+ event. I like my chances in a specifically designed storm shelter vs any other option. A basement does not compare well to a shelter.

Offline Babalonian

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Re: Severe weather/tornadoes
« Reply #52 on: May 26, 2011, 05:17:50 PM »
ROX have you seen pictures of that hospital?  It's not brick and mortar, but I wish it were.  I don't even want to think of what it's fire rating would be if we went by the codes as they are out here in CA, the building barely looks sprinklered (and that's probabley all that it is), but out here I doubt it would qualify for occupancy as a warehouse nevermind a hospital.
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Offline icepac

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Re: Severe weather/tornadoes
« Reply #53 on: May 26, 2011, 05:25:52 PM »
Best way to avoid getting hurt in any inclement weather is to be where said weather is not.


Offline ROX

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Re: Severe weather/tornadoes
« Reply #54 on: May 26, 2011, 06:51:42 PM »
 

Well, to generalize chasers and spotters as being two different things is offbase. The two go hand in hand.


Your first two sentances are THE example of the mistaken understanding with the general public between "Storm Spotters" and "Storm Chasers", and the differences are 180 degrees apart.  Your stating this on a public forum (and thank you for doing it  :aok, really) shows the public misconception and the difference beween saving lives and costing lives.  Hopefully, your bringing this up in a public way just might save a life or two, which is why I am sincerely thanking you instead of being internet snarky--which is wrong when it involes peoples lives. :aok  No joke Slash, you may have saved lives with your post because the vast majority of the American public can't tell the difference either.



Now, let's save a life (or MANY) and see if in the end, we can get more ARES members as a result!  :aok



EXAMPLE:   Monday, a cable news network (I won't name) aired the film of a "Storm Chaser" on international TV of him getting within 1/2 mile of an EF-2 tornado simply for the adrenaline rush and to post it on youtube.  You could clearly hear his girlfriend in the background screaming and sobbing in fear.  At the next intersection, rather than do a 180, pull a U turn and head back South, the "Storm Chaser" FLOORS it, goes to the next intersection and makes a nearly FATAL left hand turn (90 degrees left directly INTO the path of the tornado) and FLOORS it again, all the while his girlfriend continuing to scream and sob--fearing for her life in the background audio.  He had no two way radio communication (cell phones are worthless if the tornado has taken out the local towers), was not linked in to a two way radio network tracking the tornado, was not passing live tornado ground speed estimates, was not reporting tornado ground width estimates--worse yet--no one (most likely) besides he and his girlfriend even knew he was there, and broke every trained rule of staying a safe distance--much less providing himself at least two safe safe routes of escape.

That, is EIGHT individual (possibly fatal for himself and passenger) safety mistakes that TRAINED "Storm Spotters" are trained and drilled on time and time again to never make.  And THAT, Sir, is what happens when hot dogs go out and put their own lives in possible fatal danger and others (not to mention law enforcement officers who have to try and keep these morons out of harm's way) because they are untrained "Storm Chasers vs a licensed and traind "Storm Spotter".  There are still over 200 people missing from the Joplin, MO tornado alone.  How many of those (or even the dead) were unlicensed, untrained, uneducated "Storm Chasers" out looking for kicks and a spot on youtube?  Prayerfully, hopefully, NONE, but we will never know, will we?  This is the 180 degree difference between trained observers with adaquate communications and funerals just waiting to happen.

"Storm Spotters" are trained observers.  They have all passed a federal communications license test (between one and three exams, possibly 4 depending on how long they have been licensed) at their own educational study time and personal expense.  They then have taken advanced storm spotting and storm safety course through their local ARES (Amateur Radio Emergency Service) club, following the ARRL (Amateur Radio Relay League http://www.arrl.org ARES syllabus and training materials to get their accreditation.  They have communications equipment (at their own expense) and usually participate in weekly on-air network meetings and usually yearly emergency drills (some clubs do hands on drills with local LEO, fire, and hospital participation other than Field Day the last weekend in June).  These "hams" are eager if not over-eager to help others (read that "new people") into the hobby and into the ARES service to help in Public Service.  ARES classes and education for Storm Spotting is FREE, but available via local clubs to federal licenced radio amateurs only. ARES communications as storm spotters are officially recognised by the National Weather Service as reliable storm spotting information.  The National Weather Service also provides in-classroom instruction as part of the ARES study accreditation for "fixed" as well as "mobile" storm spotters. That's the reason you see so many TV stations nationwide re-broadcasting ARES Storm Spotting VHF network communications on local TV during their emergency storm break-away reports.  They do this here in Central Arkansas regularly during Tornado Warning situations. THIS is the ONLY time such re-broadcasts are deemed legal by the FCC...emergency communications overrides normal rules for life/death situations.

There very well might be CB'ers or cell phone Storm Chasers, who knows.  I do know that unless they are involved in the Storm Spotting Communications Network and ARES they are viewed by NWS as outsiders and their info, even if submitted at all, will be viewed as skeptical.

I was also VERY clear in my PS regarding any storm "fall-back" position as being Lucky and Lucky only in the presence of an EF-4 or EF5 (much less a direct hit from an EF-3) as being LUCKY to survive only.  Please re-read my previous post.  It's crystal clear on the matter.






  

Offline ROX

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Re: Severe weather/tornadoes
« Reply #55 on: May 26, 2011, 07:28:09 PM »
ROX have you seen pictures of that hospital?  It's not brick and mortar, but I wish it were.  I don't even want to think of what it's fire rating would be if we went by the codes as they are out here in CA, the building barely looks sprinklered (and that's probabley all that it is), but out here I doubt it would qualify for occupancy as a warehouse nevermind a hospital.

Not sure at what you were actually looking at but here's the street view of St. John's Mercy Hospital St. Josephs, MO (aka "Oakland") on McClelland Avenue..."pre" tornado, obviously.  This pic is just the "street front" ER and trauma entrances, most of the rooms and visitor's parking is on the other side...pretty big facility, actually.





http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=37.060899,-94.532108&spn=0,0.00479&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=37.060899,-94.532108&panoid=cK_IQV9fHlQgN3uel9fVng&cbp=12,124.43,,0,-2.22

Just like every Mercy Hospital in the chain, build very well.  The consultants are debating saving the original structure vs a total rebuild...the word is not final as of yet.

The Google link gives you the "look around" street view option with a mouse...just do it slowly.

It was a full service 370 bed Regional Facility.

« Last Edit: May 26, 2011, 07:37:10 PM by ROX »

Offline Meatwad

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Re: Severe weather/tornadoes
« Reply #56 on: May 26, 2011, 07:36:09 PM »
Meatwad, do you guys have a low water table or live in a flood plain?  If not, your neighborhood should pitch in and discuss building some community shelters, it's one of those things that everyone doesn't really know when or how badly you'll need it until it's too late.


That time of the year, it'll only get worse the closer we get to July.


This part of town the water table is very high. This area of town sits a little lower then the rest but as being an actual flood plain there has been no knowwn flooding in this part of town history wise. Just that it sits lower then the rest which puts the water table starting to hit only a few feet below ground.
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Offline Babalonian

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Re: Severe weather/tornadoes
« Reply #57 on: May 26, 2011, 07:44:14 PM »
It's not brick and mortar.  

We just finished as cosultants building a new hospital for Mercy in Merced, likely will be working with them again soon on another new project as the entire team on Mercy Merced came in ahead of schedule and on budget.

Like all health care providers they prioritize building a hospital so it operates as effeciently and economicaly (profit generating) as possible while conforming and adhering to all national, state and local building codes and ordnances.

As evidenced by this recent disaster, if they don't have to pay for engineering and installing an ancoring system for their emergency generators and backup systems (as mandated by the State of CA OSHPD, under penalty steep fines and/or voiding the building's permit to be occupied), then they don't.  I've dealt with the client representatives that we have to get change orders aproved by while designing or constructing, the first thing out of their mouth when we tell them how much it will cost is "no" and then we have to persuade them that they have to in order to comply, and then their attitude changes.
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Offline Babalonian

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Re: Severe weather/tornadoes
« Reply #58 on: May 26, 2011, 07:45:23 PM »

This part of town the water table is very high. This area of town sits a little lower then the rest but as being an actual flood plain there has been no knowwn flooding in this part of town history wise. Just that it sits lower then the rest which puts the water table starting to hit only a few feet below ground.

Hmmm, then that may be why threre are no shelters around you.   :(
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Offline ROX

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Re: Severe weather/tornadoes
« Reply #59 on: May 26, 2011, 07:47:56 PM »
It's not brick and mortar.  


Above photo of said brick & mortar photo and street view link provided.