Aggressive at a disadvantage

[Qrsu]

Hey guys. Just asking the community for some video references (any written tips are also much appreciated!) of instances where you've taken on nimble fighters (Zeros, Spitfires, Ki-84s come to mind) in your 109G14/K4, P-38, Jug etc... Preferably when starting off at a disadvantage.

1v1, 2v1, 3v1 - the more complex the better.

I tend to fly solo in the MA and really struggle when I run into these situations - I want to stay and fight without floundering but I can't seem to be competitive. I almost exclusively fly the G14/K4.

Thanks in advance!

[Soulyss]

Fighting from an altitude disadvantage isn't too bad as long as you have some altitude to work with yourself.  A lot of the "more maneuverable" planes do have parts of the flight envelope that can be exploited long enough to either give you a snapshot or a chance to reset the fight on more even terms.  The classic example is the A6M which actually maneuvers very poorly at higher speeds which means you can often create an overshoot/reversal early in the fight, if you miss the shot many times the A6M will attempt to get into a turning fight as quickly as possible when that occurs you can usually put your nose down and extend out of the fight, or get enough separation to re-merge in a better situation.

I don't have time to look at the moment, but I'll try and go through the films this weekend and see if I can find something.

[cactuskooler]

Hey Cursed - Long time no see.

When I find myself below, and at a E disadvantage, against a superior angles fighter there's a certain position I try to get into for the merge.

I try to look like I'm giving him an easy guns solution requiring him to only dive on me and pull the trigger. When he dives he gains a lot of speed and quickly finds himself well above corner speed. I pull up to meet him head on which bleeds off some of my speed. Just before we merge I turn away from him, dodging the HO and getting a big lead turn which sets up a nose-to-nose turn. I want a nose-to-nose turn because the plane with the better turn radius will gain the most angles. I know I'll have the tighter turn radius because he's diving past me above his corner speed while I'm slowing in a zoom climb putting me much closer to my corner speed.

The next part is mostly up to him. If he's a 190, P-51, or something fast, he'll probably continue by and extend away. The more nimble fighters will so often see your sluggish fighter and pull a hard turn back towards you. If he does that, you can often gain enough angles to secure victory or maybe enough for a snapshot (you tater chunkers like that sort of thing ).

An experienced pilot won't often fall for such tricks but this works for me in the MAs so frequently.

Here's a film showing it. A single-engine P-38G, with half her horizontal stab blown off, meets a Spit16 nearly head-on, outturns him in a one turn and fires a winning a shot. Pay attention to both our speeds.
http://www.mediafire.com/?rn5ldhaedkb8i1z

[The Fugitive]

I have this film. http://myfreefilehosting.com/f/64e0378ae7_3.95MB

It's me in a 109G14. The real fight doesn't start until about 5 minutes in. It's a fight against potsandpans in a C205. Once we get engaged I time we only get separated to 1.6k once, the rest of the time we are under a 1000. It was a fun fight. He didn't give me much to shoot at, but I finally tagged him good.

Throttle work, flaps, and rudder work kept me busy against that little 205.

[Muzzy]

I'll have to check if I have any old films of taking on hordes of zekes, spits, and hogs in my A8.  These incidents usually happened while defending a base against a CV attack.  My strategy is to climb out a little and build up some speed, then dive into the mix and look for any kind of shot I can take, especially crossing shots. 

One of the advantages you have when flying heavy fighters against nimble ones is volume of fire.  The nimble birds are generally pretty fragile, and planes like the Jug, 38, FW A8 and 51 all have lots of guns with long clips.  That makes it easier to set up crossing shots and devastate the lighter planes when they cross your nose.

[Shane]

I never consider it a disadvantage to being lower, unless there are 3+ above. It's all about timing and predicting flight paths relative to yours - experience.


Now if I'm up against a winged pair or trio, I will be flexible in my plans, always engaging (and often using one to set up another that thinks I'm the one being set up) what I consider to be the bigegst threat. If you work it right, you can also pair them up and basicaly make them do what you want.    And then at least one, hopefully 2 or all 3 will experience FAIL and end up in tower.  

The coordinated wings are actually easier to deal with that the one or two random ones coming in. It's important you're constantly aware of what's where and what may be coming in.

If you want to get better at this, I'd suggest you use a base not under attack to up your ride and head for the mid-point between the two engaged bases.  You can often lure a few away from the lemming trail. Just make sure you don't get too tangled up too close to the trail for those random gangmonkeys to cruise over for a pick.

I've made a bazillion films in a variety of planes in these situations... all lost in the great hd crash of '11    I've proabbly made a few more since I came back... I might be bothered to look around for a few, but I hate the free hosting sites... PITAs.

In any case, keep practicing, always keep an eye and engage the biggest threat, even if you have to think ahead somewhat and manipulate the weaker of the pack to set the hook another.

Expect to die... a lot... but you will get better.

You could even ask 2 or 3 others to go to the DA with you and work on that specific situation, over and over... I've done it, under different set ups as well.

It does help to have some room under you to work it... once you're trapped on the deck, it's a different kind of fight, but still doable.

[Lepape2]

This style of E disadvantage fighting is very much to my style. You don't to spend time to climb to alt all the time while the enemies will just come down for you. As long as they don't avoid shots and pull back up to keep their E or not really commit to the fight and try to Co-E or that you don't only have 303's to fight back, the meaning "expose yourself to force exposure of your opponent"  cannot be more meaningfully expressed. Fugitive's 205 defense film shows exactly that. Stay right below your enemy and force him to have shots on you when its the most difficult and most E consuming all the while you keep gaining more E with relative ease and most of the time with a 600-800 snap shot.

Jumping into fight at 5-7k will not feel that dangerous when you master how to play bait effectively. Also, when you can't stay right under your higher enemy and you have to make a break turn, follow an old Agent360's advice on break turns: Don't give them a snap shot with lot of E burning for YOU and none for HIM by breaking away at 1.5k. Start it really slow (2k-1.5k) and make yourself look an easy shot to him while he stays on your 6; then gradually pull more Gs (< 1.5k) while still remaining an easy target until about 600-800ish, then, pull all you got just enough to force him to blackout for his shot. This will make him burn a lot more E than you in return. Works awesome on P51s.

Here is a film of this same move (Jug (me) VS F6F (Sunny)). He got a shot on me while I did it so at the end, I went out of fuel...
http://www.mediafire.com/?tawzfixt90c28rv

Second film is a numerous disadvantage one (Still Jug (me) VS Spit + 2 F4Us) where I emerge victorious this time. Some luck went into play with this one but there is always some involved  
http://www.mediafire.com/?sceou5e04t1i5aw

[BaldEagl]

Last weekend I was flying a K4 over a base that looked like it was under relatively heavy attack.  When I got there there were only a couple of enemies around so I took off after a Jug that looked like he was trying to exit the area.

I chased him quie a way on the deck and was just coming into guns range when I noticed three or four cons coming toward me from an alt advantage.  IIRC two were P-51D's and a N1K and I don't remember what the other was.  I turned away and hit WEP.

As I expected they all committed to me as did the Jug I had just been chasing.  We were all B***s to the wall but they, coming from an alt advantage were closing.

As the first Pony closed to 600 I chopped throttle, cranked in full right rudder and rolled into an extended helix barrel roll.  One, two, three overshot.

Knowing there was at least one more behind me I leveled, hit the throttle and the WEP, lined up my shot and missed the last one extending out.

After that the fight was on and I think there were five of them with the last one being a Spit by the time they got me.  Regardless of not getting a kill I feet pretty good about that fight denying them the easy early kill I'm sure they thought they had.

Sometimes I wish I filmed.

[Qrsu]

Thanks guys! I've taken quite a few pointers from the videos and write ups. Much appreciated.

[Krusty]

Was it Marseille or Hartmann that said "Always attack the enemy. Even at a position of disadvantage. Through attacking the enemy you may catch them unprepared, and create your own advantage" ?

Or something along those lines. 

[PuppetZ]

"Always attack the enemy. Even at a position of disadvantage. Through attacking the enemy you may catch them unprepared, and create your own advantage" ?

Ok in AH, I always go for the bad guys even lower and slower. I don't care if I am shot down. In RL you may also catch them well prepared and get  . I'm not one who would run from a fight, but willingly putting you on the recieving end of a stream of bullets because you might somehow prevail is some kind of magical thinking. A vietnam pilot, quoted from the falcon 4.0 manual, said once about AAA : 'never attack something that's trying to shoot you, unless it's your mission, because you might win, but you might also loose.' Willingly putting yourself at a disadvantage in any kind fight is 'darwin award' material. I wonder how many poor lads died because of phrases like that...

[Krusty]

There is a difference between turning into an attacker in a plane that has a better position than you, and going foolishly into AAA defenses.


The point about attacking even at a bad position denotes manuvers, not strafing.

The point is, even if the enemy is closing in on you from above, behind, whatever, by turning into the attack and meeting them with an aggressive manner, you may force them to break away, you may give them pause and any minute hesitation only gives you greater ground. It is mental as well as tactical.

If you do nothing you gain nothing. By pushing the fight to the enemy fighters, by actively engaging them, you create your own advantages.

"Fortune favors the bold" or "He helps those who help themselves", whatever you want to call it.

That's the gist of the quote.


EDIT: While I agree about willingly putting yourself out there, like a number of folks that can only get a shot if they pull their overshoot jink manuver, I would point out most times you don't PUT yourself there... You find yourself there

[PuppetZ]

Well, I think it's one of those situation where both sides are right. As your decision in any given situation will depend on said situation, we can break down what this mean in 2 concept.

1-the ennemy plane has you engaged and is diving on you. If you do nothing you die. That's a case where HAVE to do something or you just forfeit your life. So better turn to face him hopping for the ennemy to do something stupid than run and do something stupid yourself.

2-the ennemy is on a high perch. You are not yet engaged and spot him from afar. You decide to extend and come back with an advantage. In that case, if you press an attack you put yourself at risk for no reason as you have not expended all your tactical choice. Retreating to come back co-E or better an advantage is the best tactics sometimes.

That last case can be assimilated to foolishly going into AAA.

[Krusty]

I think you're making it a little too literal.

The original context was revolving around combat. If an enemy flies over you and ignores you, that's not combat. However, most combat pilots would still have climbed up to the higher targets and attacked, thus creating combat.

Naturally there is an element of common sense that goes into it, as you suggest. 

[JOACH1M]

 Have a FEW of these 2v1 3v1 and a 4v1 videos...would you want some?