Author Topic: change the location of the fight  (Read 938 times)

Offline caldera

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6499
change the location of the fight
« on: May 30, 2011, 10:30:16 AM »
It seems to me, that the game is now centered on capping, smashing hangars, deacking and vulching.  These things have always been in the game but now it seems standard fare at every base someone tries to take.  Takes the fun out of things if you can't even get up a head of steam (sometimes even get wheels up) before getting swooped on by a bunch of cherry pickers.  Every country does the same thing.

Since the way to capture a base is to flatten the town and drop troops, why not have the fight in/over the town?

1. Double the ack and it's effectiveness at air bases.  Add in 17 pounders for tanks that want to camp hangars.
2. Remove all ack from towns.
3. Move vehicle spawns closer to towns and on the side opposite the airfield. 

This way, the defenders could at least get up maneuvering speed before getting bounced by the horde.  It would be faster and easier to take towns with less people, therefore more towns could be under attack.  Tank fights actually in the towns.  Maps could rotate faster.  The main thing is that instead of one hug glob on every front, there could be multiple attacks simultaneously.  Having the towns easier to take would maybe give the horde incentive to not hold hands so much.  That would also give lone flyers and smaller groups more incentive to bother defending.  Less conga line and more small furballs. 

That's my theory anyway.
Snuggie - voted "Sexiest Man Alive" for the entire Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere!

Offline Lusche

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23949
      • Last.FM Profile
Re: change the location of the fight
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2011, 10:40:55 AM »
While in my opinion some of the details would not work that well, I do think that the very core of your idea - shifting the objectives and the fight away from the bases themselves - has a lot of merit and could indeed change AH to the better.  :old:

I think I will reuse this concept in the "Great New Ideas" Thread in General Discussions  :D
Steam: DrKalv
E:D Snailman

In November 2025, Lusche will return for a 20th anniversary tour. Get your tickets now!

Offline kvuo75

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3003
Re: change the location of the fight
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2011, 11:25:12 AM »
remember when the new towns first came out.. there was no ack in them (for about a week). I liked it. you needed at least one person to baby sit the town until buildings started popping lest it get snuck right back from you. You could have a tank fight IN the town without getting tracked by some magic ack.



kvuo75

Kill the manned ack.

Offline 321BAR

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6140
Re: change the location of the fight
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2011, 11:29:35 AM »
remember when the new towns first came out.. there was no ack in them (for about a week). I liked it. you needed at least one person to baby sit the town until buildings started popping lest it get snuck right back from you. You could have a tank fight IN the town without getting tracked by some magic ack.




i always loved the idea that you can finally use GVs to chokepoint the enemy into the towns and they now can use firing lanes all over the place... the ack is not necessary. just add a few more acks at base to allow defenders the chance to get to town
I am in need of a new epic quote
Happy Jack's Go Buggy

Offline TwinTail

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 508
Re: change the location of the fight
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2011, 11:30:41 AM »
Quote
1. Double the ack and it's effectiveness at air bases.  Add in 17 pounders for tanks that want to camp hangars.

More survivability for the ack runners. This way they cant get what they deserve. Vulched.
d-40 and d-11 easily out turn a spixteen
==*Top Gun*==
TwinTail

Offline Biggamer

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 579
Re: change the location of the fight
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2011, 11:52:15 AM »
and you also cant get what you want and that is to vulch them so it goes both ways
G3-MF

Offline caldera

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6499
Re: change the location of the fight
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2011, 05:17:41 PM »
I can see how a vulcher would disagree with the extra ack on the fields.  You could hover and cherry pick over the towns just as well, except that the defenders won't be rolling on the runway for you.  With all the field capping going on, you get bounced by 3 or 4 cons the second you lift off.  Not much of a fight, unless tag-team BnZ is a fight to you.  The only defense is to fly a fast BnZ plane and cherry pick the cherry pickers.  Not as easy to play that game 1vs 6 as it is for the attackers 6 vs 1.
Snuggie - voted "Sexiest Man Alive" for the entire Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere!

Offline Crash Orange

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 911
Re: change the location of the fight
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2011, 06:01:07 PM »
It seems to me that the basic problem that drives all of these considerations is the ability of defenders to up unlimited planes from the field. That's why taking down hangars or deacking and vulching is so important and effective. That's what drives the hordes and NOEs. It's simple math. As long as the defender can instantly re-up while the attacker has to fly 5-10 minutes to return if he's shot down, the defense will easily win any battle of attrition by sheer weight of numbers - numbers meaning sorties. If you don't care how many times you get killed, you can up ten times, get vulched nine times, kill one plane the tenth time, and still be winning the battle, because that one kill is one attacker out of the fight while the nine vulches don't take any defenders out of the fight (because they can just hop right back up ten seconds later). If 10-15 guys do that, they may get killed 100 times between them, but they'll eventually kill all the attackers, or at least enough to beat the attack. It's effectively a force multiplier for the defender: one player equals as many sorties as he is motivated to fly. Therefore the most effective tactic for the attacker is one that keeps it from becoming a battle of attrition, which means bringing overwhelming force to smash down the defense before it can get started or dominate the field so thoroughly that defenders can't (or are unwilling to) get up to get even that one-in-ten kill, or sneaking in and taking the base too fast for the defenders to react.

That's why the best furballs are usually halfway between two bases - because a kill takes the victim out of the fight regardless of which side he's on. That's great for furballing but strategically inconclusive, because there's no objective for the attacker out in the middle of nowhere. In order to take the base, you have to push the fight to the base, and once you do that you're back to the defender having a big advantage.

It's also what makes CV-based attacks so intense - because the attackers have a base very close to the target, so they can re-up as easily as the defense. The attacker can win the battle of attrition if he consistently outfights the defender.

Making the base more secure and the town more vulnerable doesn't really change that. One way to address it might be to move the towns much further from the fields - say, halfway to the dar circle, and generally toward the other side rather than toward the defender's HQ. Do that and make the field more secure (more ack, more or harder-to-kill hangars) and you've changed the math. Now it's much harder to stop the defenders upping at all, but the defenders have to come well away from their field ack to accomplish anything. Now the attackers' best tactic is to beat the enemy in the air, not keep him from getting into the air to begin with.

Another way to address it might be in combination with ideas from other threads like zone ENY or ENy linked to the number of people upping from a given field, or changing the percentage of town destruction necessary for base capture based on the number of attackers. Do that, but also change it based on the number of defenders too - and the number of sorties, not people in the air at a given time. 50 attackers would have a high ENY, but so would 50 defenders - or 10 defenders upping 10 times each. You can keep upping all you want, but as you do your ENY climbs. In the 50-10 scenario the attackers would still have the higher ENY, but where the number of attackers and defenders is more even, but the attackers are outfighting the defenders, the defenders' ENY would climb as they get killed and re-up. That would give an more even number of attackers a better chance of capturing the base by winning the air battle. it would mean killing a defender actually accomplishes something strategically.

Another possibility might be to puta time limit on re-upping from the same field. If you get killed, you can go and up anywhere else on the map, or go to the next nearest base a sector away and re-up at once, but if you want to up at the same base you have to wait five minutes. Again, that would stop the defending base from having effectively an infinite number of planes to defend it, and it would mean killing a defender actually takes him out of the fight for a little while (either in the tower or flying in from the next sector). And again, this would also work most effectively in combination with measure to limit the number of attackers, or handicap the attackers (ENY, town capture %, etc.) if they bring huge numbers.

The basic idea is to limit the number of attackers, but at the same time limit the ability of defenders to win the battle just by re-upping infinite times and eventually getting lucky. The attackers need to beat a more equal number of defenders if they expect to win, but the defenders need to stay alive and win fights rather than die-reup-die-reup-die-reup-rinse-repeat if they expect to win.

Offline curry1

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2321
Re: change the location of the fight
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2011, 07:06:36 PM »
Maybe just double the effectiveness of ack.  But not double he amount of ack guns.
Curry1-Since Tour 101

Offline iron650

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 662
Re: change the location of the fight
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2011, 07:12:18 PM »
The attackers need to beat a more equal number of defenders if they expect to win, but the defenders need to stay alive and win fights rather than die-reup-die-reup-die-reup-rinse-repeat if they expect to win.

That's why some people bomb the fighter hangars.

+1 to everything but removing the ack from the town.

Offline VonMessa

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11922
Re: change the location of the fight
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2011, 07:16:33 PM »
That's why some people bomb the fighter hangars.

+1 to everything but removing the ack from the town.

Because those toolsheds put up such an intense fight?
Braümeister und Schmutziger Hund von JG11


We are all here because we are not all there.

Offline caldera

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6499
Re: change the location of the fight
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2011, 08:09:45 PM »
Quote
Making the base more secure and the town more vulnerable doesn't really change that. One way to address it might be to move the towns much further from the fields - say, halfway to the dar circle, and generally toward the other side rather than toward the defender's HQ. Do that and make the field more secure (more ack, more or harder-to-kill hangars) and you've changed the math. Now it's much harder to stop the defenders upping at all, but the defenders have to come well away from their field ack to accomplish anything. Now the attackers' best tactic is to beat the enemy in the air, not keep him from getting into the air to begin with.

That is exactly what I would like, but figured that would involve a lot of work on the maps to implement it. Was trying a minimalist approach but would much prefer the towns farther away.  :aok
Snuggie - voted "Sexiest Man Alive" for the entire Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere!

Offline PFactorDave

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4334
Re: change the location of the fight
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2011, 08:13:58 PM »
figured that would involve a lot of work on the maps to implement it.

I think a total rethink of the capture and strat system are definitely worth looking at seriously.  Even to the point where I wish that HTC would pretty much scrap all of the current maps and put together a few brand new ones with a new system in place.  Trying to shoe horn a massive revamp of the system into the existing maps is asking for things to be half-assed and prone to failure.

At least, that is my opinion.

1st Lieutenant
FSO Liaison Officer
Rolling Thunder

Offline B-17

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2672
Re: change the location of the fight
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2011, 08:25:17 PM »
I think a total rethink of the capture and strat system are definitely worth looking at seriously.  Even to the point where I wish that HTC would pretty much scrap all of the current maps and put together a few brand new ones with a new system in place.  Trying to shoe horn a massive revamp of the system into the existing maps is asking for things to be half-assed and prone to failure.

At least, that is my opinion.

+1

who needs all these maps? its crazy...i couldnt make up my mind when i was online.

Online The Fugitive

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18278
      • Fugi's Aces Help
Re: change the location of the fight
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2011, 09:40:02 PM »
How about 5 towns per field. Have a base per sector and that base covers 5 towns in that sector, each town being 5 miles away from the base. You must capture all 5 towns to capture the base. With 5 towns, attacks would be spread out, defenders could up from bases in the next sector, much the attackers.