catalina

[cut67]

<S> I was just thinking we dont have many planes that can actually attack ships head on with much fire power. Why not bring in the catalina? It can take off from a port or something Just a thought

[gyrene81]

    

<S> I was just thinking we dont have many planes that can actually attack ships head on with much fire power. Why not bring in the catalina? It can take off from a port or something Just a thought

   

so you're thinking a pby can attack a ship head on?           

[Krusty]

PBYs were slow, lumbering, lightly gunned, had almost no armor protection to speak of (the wings with all the fuel in them were CLOTH covered wings!) and was used 99% of the time as a recon/scout plane simply observing and reporting what they saw, NOT engaging fleets of battlecruisers or carriers.

[Drano]

NOT engaging fleets of battlecruisers or carriers.

Well unless it was pitch black in the dead of night and you don't even want to get me started on the whole "night" thing.

[waystin2]

Yes to the Cat, but not for the Op's stated reasons.  +1 PBY

[Ack-Ack]

PBYs were slow, lumbering, lightly gunned, had almost no armor protection to speak of (the wings with all the fuel in them were CLOTH covered wings!) and was used 99% of the time as a recon/scout plane simply observing and reporting what they saw, NOT engaging fleets of battlecruisers or carriers.

You're incorrect about the usage of the Catalina, they did engage Japanese warships and actively hunted cruisers, battleships, destroyers, submarines and even aircraft carriers.  I highly recommend reading the book, "Black Cat Raiders" by Richard C. Knott.  You'll find many pilot reports and stories of Catalinas taking off at night to specifically hunt the Japanese ships you claimed they didn't attack. 

I was suprised myself when I read some of the accounts on how the Black Cats in the Solomons would actually take off at night to hunt Japanese aircraft carriers that were reported in the vicinity.

Catalina operations were divided into two sections, attack and search and rescue and squadrons would rotate between the two. For example, VPB-33 might be pulling patrol/attack-interdiction missions while VPB-101 was flying search and rescue operations.  Each squadron would fly like this for a tour and then rotate to the other duty after the tour was over or return stateside for additional training or reformation.

ack-ack

[Krusty]

How many were ever flown that way, and armed that way?

10? 20? 40?


Of the more than 4000 built, it's such a small number as to be statistically insignificant. You might as well mention how F-15s broke the world climb speed record -- oh wait that was just a single stripped down version. See what I mean though?

Far above and beyond their other uses they were [relatively] unarmed sitting ducks and were used as recon, rescue, some limited shipping duties, etc. Mostly behind friendly lines, rarely flying directly into combat unless under the cover of night to sneak by any patrols/defenses, drop off or extract some group of people.

They were not combat craft as a whole.

[Ack-Ack]

How many were ever flown that way, and armed that way?

10? 20? 40?

All of the PBY squadrons were rotated in such a manner.  In fact, due to Catalina's night time interdiction and bombing raids, all Catalina squadron designations changed from VP (Patrol) to VPB (Patrol Bombing) in 1944.

Of the more than 4000 built, it's such a small number as to be statistically insignificant. You might as well mention how F-15s broke the world climb speed record -- oh wait that was just a single stripped down version. See what I mean though?

It's not such a small number because it wasn't.  ALL USN PBY squadrons were used in this fashion, from the beginning of the war until the very end. 

Far above and beyond their other uses they were [relatively] unarmed sitting ducks and were used as recon, rescue, some limited shipping duties, etc. Mostly behind friendly lines, rarely flying directly into combat unless under the cover of night to sneak by any patrols/defenses, drop off or extract some group of people.

Your comments are born out of not knowing how the PBY performed during the war.  You are wrong, pure and simple.  PBY's flew into direct combat each night they took off to bomb Japanese bases and shipping, that was their main job all throughout the war.

Again, take some time to actually read about the PBY's service during the war and it will open your eyes to what they really did.  I used to believe the same stuff you did in regards to the Catalina but after reading some books on the PBY, I found out that I was wrong and the PBY was in fact a major player in the PTO, from the beginning of hostilities until the Japanese surrender.

Again, read Black Cat Raiders and you'll see that Catalinas regularly attacked and hunted Japanese ships such as destroyers, cruisers, battleships, destroyer escorts and even aircraft carriers and were not the shrinking violets you think they were.

They were not combat craft as a whole.

They regularly attacked enemy shipping, bases and other installation as well as troops as a normal part of their mission profile.  The PBY, despite your claims, was a combat aircraft as a whole and its wartime service reflects that.


Whether or not it has a place in AH, that I'm not trying to debate or convince anyone of.  I am, however, correcting the false claims put out by you and others about the PBY's wartime service record.


ack-ack

[Krusty]

Ack-Ack that's a bit grandiose... Saying ALL PBYs were flown into the middle of Japanese fleets in the middle of the night to drop torpedoes? 

They were ALL flown that way, really? All 4000+?    

(Even the ones doing routine recon? Even the ones ferrying people from islance thousands of miles behind the "front" in the PTO? Even the ones just scouting for CVs off Midway?)

Surely some of them were, but only so many at a time, and only for so long.


I understand you want to defend their honor, and I get it. But those black cats were a fraction of the entire PBY force. Only a handful of black cat sqauds were used. There were far far more that served in coastal patrol, maritime patrol, ASW, and other types of jobs. I know folks have this romantic view of the black cat missions, but they were statistically very small compared to the other types of missions.

Kind of like C-47s. Everybody thinks of D-Day, always the iconic. But that was a very small sample of the overal (and generally mundane) duties this plane performed.

[Ack-Ack]

Ack-Ack that's a bit grandiose... Saying ALL PBYs were flown into the middle of Japanese fleets in the middle of the night to drop torpedoes? 

They were ALL flown that way, really? All 4000+?    

All USN PBY squadrons were rotated between tours as bomber/attack-interdiction and scout/search and rescue.  There is the odd one or two PBY squadrons that didn't but those were the exception, not the rule.


 

(Even the ones doing routine recon? Even the ones ferrying people from islance thousands of miles behind the "front" in the PTO? Even the ones just scouting for CVs off Midway?)

Surely some of them were, but only so many at a time, and only for so long.

Yep, even those. 

I understand you want to defend their honor, and I get it. But those black cats were a fraction of the entire PBY force. Only a handful of black cat sqauds were used. There were far far more that served in coastal patrol, maritime patrol, ASW, and other types of jobs. I know folks have this romantic view of the black cat missions, but they were statistically very small compared to the other types of missions.

This has nothing to with "defending their honor", my posts are correcting your incorrect assertions that you've based on absolutely no facts at all.  Again, USN PBY squadrons were rotated between doing tours as bombers and as scouts/SAR aircraft. 

Again, do some reading (a great start is the book I mentioned earlier) and you'll see that the wartime service of the PBY was far more extensive than you think.  I too thought that the PBY was minor player but after doing some research I found out I was wrong.

Kind of like C-47s. Everybody thinks of D-Day, always the iconic. But that was a very small sample of the overal (and generally mundane) duties this plane performed.

Terrible and inaccurate analogy.

ack-ack

[AWwrgwy]

All USN PBY squadrons were rotated between tours as bomber/attack-interdiction and scout/search and rescue.  There is the odd one or two PBY squadrons that didn't but those were the exception, not the rule.


 ack-ack

Reference?


wrongway

[Krusty]

Ack-Ack, I am not denying SOME did as you say. But not all PBYs were black cats. There sure as hell weren't 4000+ attacking the Japanese every night. There wouldn't be enough seaports in all of Asia to support them.

You're wrong in saying ALL of them did that. It's a numerical impossibility.

[Seanaldinho]

Krusty I believe the part you are missing is that not every squadron was a Black Cat squad all the time. That squad served a tour as SAR and a tour as "attack". So in a way everyplane did just not all at once.

[Pigslilspaz]

Kind of like C-47s. Everybody thinks of D-Day, always the iconic. But that was a very small sample of the overal (and generally mundane) duties this plane performed.

With that logic, we shouldn't have goons available in the C-47. Only supplies, due to the overall (and generally mundane) duties this plane performed.

[guncrasher]

so they sent catalina from the east coast to fight the japanese then rotated some from the pacific back to east coast?  don't make sense.

seep